Restoration / refinish / modification poll

[JimSupica]

There has been a great discussion on this forum & in the SWCA forum on firearms restoration & rework. I thought a poll might be fun & interesting.

For the following, let's assume that we're talking about a somewhat scarce & very desirable S&W model of your favorite choosing. It might be:

* Target Triplelock
* Registered Magnum
* Schofield
* 5 screw .44 Magnum
* K-32

Assume the gun is in "NRA Wretched" condition - horribly beat up finish, but restorable.

We can agree that if a gun belongs to someone, it's their decision what to do with it, at least up to the point of criminal fraud. This survey is whether you personally "disapprove" of various types of alterations to a classic gun.

With those assumptions, how do the following fit your taste?

* PREFERABLE = A good idea - I'd prefer that those changes were made.

* ACCEPTABLE = It wouldn't bother me if thoses changes were made.

* UNACCEPTABLE = Nope. I don't like it.

 

[JimSupica]

There has been a great discussion on this forum & in the SWCA forum on firearms restoration & rework. I thought a poll might be fun & interesting.

For the following, let's assume that we're talking about a somewhat scarce & very desirable S&W model of your favorite choosing. It might be:

* Target Triplelock
* Registered Magnum
* Schofield
* 5 screw .44 Magnum
* K-32

Assume the gun is in "NRA Wretched" condition - horribly beat up finish, but restorable.

We can agree that if a gun belongs to someone, it's their decision what to do with it, at least up to the point of criminal fraud. This survey is whether you personally "disapprove" of various types of alterations to a classic gun.

With those assumptions, how do the following fit your taste?

* PREFERABLE = A good idea - I'd prefer that those changes were made.

* ACCEPTABLE = It wouldn't bother me if thoses changes were made.

* UNACCEPTABLE = Nope. I don't like it.

 

[kwill1911]

Moondawg,

No disrespect intended but can we stipulate that those with the "I'm gonna carry and shoot it, period" attitude NOT vote? You're certainly entitled to your opinion but it will distort the poll results if those to whom these issues don't mean "diddly squat" are voting.

Thanks for considering it.

Kevin Williams

 

[mikepriwer]

Assume the gun is in "NRA Wretched" condition - horribly beat up finish, but restorable.

Jim

Interesting you would choose this particular way of descirbing a candidate !

Beyond my tongue-in-cheek comment, your survey idea is a very good one. It will help to quantify what
a lot of us think. Its interesting to watch the results as time progress's. Usually, but not always,
early poll results are indicative of the eventual vote. I guess that must be true - otherwise early
results from polling election stations would be meaningless.

I didn't pay attention- but is the link to this poll set up like a FAQ ? It should be , if it is not.
Otherewise, over time it will drift out of sight !

Good idea, Mike Priwer

 

[handejector]

We can agree that if a gun belongs to someone, it's their decision what to do with it, at least up to the point of criminal fraud.

I agree.

However, I believe this question shows an endeavor that could easily turn into fraud down the line, after the owner is dead, either intentionally or unintentionally:

Question:
Expert restoration with factory style engraving.

Solution: Engravers should sign and date their work.

These two questions show endeavors that are outright fraud, and I see no good reason to EVER do them:

Question:
Expert restoration to factory "as new" condition, but changed to a more rare configuration (i.e., nickle instead of blue, rare barrel length, etc.)

Question:
Expert restoration with rare markings added -- i.e. police dept markings, military markings, old presentation inscription.

Solution: DON'T do it! If a gun is so rare that you stand so little chance of ever owning a legit one, and you simply can't get over it, I suggest you change your collecting direction. Go for commems or Beanie Babies! If one creates a rare gun, he defrauds himself today, and probably posterity later.

A comment on one more question:

Question:
Should restoration artists mark their work?

The REALLY great refinishers are, as I've already said, MORALLY obligated to mark their work, whether the owner desires it or not. It should not be the owner's option- "If we do the work, we make the mark" type of thing. Otherwise, the possibility of eventual fraud lies squarely on the shoulders of the artist.

 

[Tijeras_Slim]

Excellent poll.

Of course I was in the majority on every question and didn't look at the results before voting.

 

[Pistol Toter]

To many of you guys my opinion will mean little if anything at all, and I certianly understand that. My collection is quite small and of little value especially considering some of the collections must take a room sized vault or vaults. But none the less my collection is mine, it's all, actually more than I can afford and I'm proud of it. But I'm a pureist. My most conservativeness is in the area of antiques and old, collectable items. I have here in front of me a small medicine bottle that dates back to 1910. It is worth only a few dollars, probably less than $10 to a "I gotta have that bottle" collector, but it is absolutely in perfect condition, not a chip is missing. Incidentially, I picked it up on the parcel of ground that was used as the family garden 40+ years ago. The point is; I would rather have that old beat up S&W just as orginal as it can be. Make changes to it only if it makes it more orginal. A functional gun is great but if makeing it functional destroys the way it was made, then leave it unable to function. If the stocks are beat up but yet are numbered to the gun then leave them on the gun; to change them destroys the orginality of the piece. I have an old pot that sat in my great great great great grandmothers fireplace, not a stove. This pot sits on three little feet. One of these little bosses is nearly burned away. It would be an atrocity to take a torch and build up that foot. That's part of the OLD POT. One of my old model 10's is an LEO gun and it obviously was in some kind of fight to the death contest, it shows its battle scares. Mechanically it is in wonderful condition and deadly accurate. I could have it refinished, it would make a beautiful piece. It came with rubber stocks and I replace them using some well worn stocks of the correct period. No foul there as the orginals were already gone. It looks like it just came off of Officers Bill Fritz, Sam Brown Belt on the day of his retirement. That's the way it's gonna stay, as long at belongs to me. Jim I apologize for my long rambling post. It is an excellent poll and questions. Just my thoughts. Thank you. P.T.

 

[n4zov]

Thanks for posting this very informative poll. It would be interesting to post it on Coltforum.com and compare results.

 

[RKmesa]

Jim:

Are you sure that you are not an accountant? Maybe, you spent some time as a bookkeeper in the family business, etc...?

As a bean counter, I love that someone has taken the initiative to quantify the feedback from some of the recent threads.

Thanks,

 

[npd136]

I have a early 50's vintage 22 Combat Masterpiece that must have been someones tacklebox gun as it was rusty and pitted. As I saw no harm, I spent several days at the buffing wheel and had Lee Shaver in Lamar, MO reblue it. It still is lightly pitted but looks 100 times better. It is now a pleasure to take on my evening walks around the farm. I believe that we do not own guns, we merely possess them while we are here on this earth. While I hope to pass it as well as my others on to my grandsons, I hope they look at it as something that they would be proud to own and not just "That old rusty gun that grandpa had".

 

[Deacon KC]

I found it interesting as I have given a lot of thought on this over the years. Actually looking at the questions made me quantify my own opinions and actions on different firearms over the years. Thanks for the time you put into this.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

This subject is alway's controversial. It can be extremely provocative. My impression, based upon the passionate discourse it typically provokes, is that it is much akin to discussions of politics or religion.

In the end though, my conclusion is that people will do as they wish. Ultimately though, a poll like this one should remain formatted like the FAQ pages, as Mike Priwer suggested. It will serve as a good reference for those pondering the subject or in fact considering undertaking a refinish, restorization or alteration/customization. If nothing else, it might help avoid some of the overzealous remarks of "for and against" that seem to sometimes spill into otherwise civil and interesting discussions of other subjects. I'm sure many of us have read or even participated in these, so you know where I'm coming from. I believe it is a valid subject for discussion but we should try to encourage tolerance for dissent and for those who may disagree with our own particular views on the subject. If I want to be aggravated, I can spend a week visiting my in laws. I don't have to come to the Forum to experience that!

 

[DMark]

Jim,

Great Poll. Interesting results.

The "restore/refinish/mod" debate reminds me of the same topic within my other area of interest - - - Corvettes.

- One group wants everything as it left the factory and trailers their cars everywhere.

- The others believe that the cars were meant to be driven and aren't too worried that the replacement part isn't OEM so long as it functions.

What both sides do agree with is that a FAKE is a FAKE...., Barrett Jackson auction "recreations" be damned.

That is why I don't have a problem with a well restored firearm - so long as I know that it isn't being passed off as something it never was or ANIB.

 

[JimSupica]

Thanks for participating & for the interesting comments!

Since this thread seems to be slowing down, I've posted a link to it in the FAQ section, as someone suggested, so it might be easily accessible in the future.

Jim

 

[Jellybean]

"a FAKE is a FAKE"???

Would that include S&Ws 'Heritage Series' revolvers?

 

[gig-a-hertz]

I buy the nicest "representative samples" of what I find interesting. Some have been re-blued by someone other than S&W. Alot have the 'wrong' grips. Most have no boxes or 'period correct' boxes. I don't have the money or where-withall to be that picky. If I like something & it is in good condition (however it got that way) and is a "representative sample" of what I want, then it is OK to me, at least until I find a better one.

I agree that Faking a gun is not good.

All of my period correct guns are not Fakes, and have been taken care of: however, by whomever, in the past as he/she chose to do so.
Alot of what I like don't turn-up everyday, and I don't travel the world to dig them up (except with the advent of the 'net). The internet has undoubtedly pumped prices up, but that is a fact of life as awareness increases, no matter how. It has also allowed for proliferated frauds. Buyer beware.

That works for me.

When I elevate myself to the level of some of you who have owned 40 or 50 of the same model guns, then the ones that have risen to the top of my pile will be defended similarly.

To the folks able to pay 13k for a non-popular gun (at it's hey-day) now, I feel for you if you find it was "Perma-Blued" on a kitchen table.

Scruples is the keyword.
I wonder if everyone who has owned/handled 50 of something always tells a prospective buyer all the tricks he's learned?

 

[feralmerril]

To me every possible gun decision is a case unto itself. If I wanted my own custom gun with unusual features I would take a gun of my chooseing and have it modified to my chooseing, but I wouldnt lie to myself about the cost consequences, which I would know I wouldnt get close to recopeing.
A historical gun I wouldnt touch except for mandatory repairs to put it functional.
I just answered on another thread about someone wanting to redo a 28 to .44 special. You can see my thinking on that deal.
If I had a family gun that was a working gun and needed repairs or new blueing say to my dads all shotgun, I would do it and keep useing it.
I have several custom guns and have had done 4 or 5 many years ago.
I am not real sure why, but I seem to have a kind of pet peeve with the "guru" statis given to many custom gunsmiths that are "worshiped" nowdays. Probley comes haveing the pleasure of knowing several top craftsmen in the 60s & 70s that done work for me and were "unsung & unknown" and could do as good work and maybe better, than some gurus, that were made by a few writers praiseing them and the newer generation that seems to belive what they read and figure they must be a visario to own something they have touched, and want something by them to brag about. There were good craftsmen forever that wasnt given guru status by writers. Kind of like when I was a kid going to church we had ladys in our little church that could sing like angels, a couple of my cousins in particular, that some of these modern famous young women in music that make millions couldnt have carried a candel to.
Sorry I have drifted off the thread!

 

[mm6mm6]

I say do with it whatever you want since it's your gun as long as the following are followed:

1) Never try to pass off a restored gun as original, whether for profit or just to sell it.

2) Never cause a gun to lose value due to restoration. The late 1870's gun with a brown patina, worn hard rubber grips and a lightly pitted bore that is otherwise original will ALWAYS be worth more as it is that restored.

My personal examples are as follows;

Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless with a bore that was unsafe to fire, a completely flaked off nickel finish that was dull gray and grips that were busted and missing. Colt made 1.1 million of these guns and this one was only worthy of a $50 Gun Buy Back scheme.

Here's how it was when I got it, except that I happen to have a perfect set of original grips.

I bought a new barrel for $70 and paid $100 to have it professionally restored and blued. The gentleman did a wonderful job and lost no edges or writing. I added the ivory handles.

Then I tried it out and it shot really well! So I had it engraved in 75% American Scroll by Michael Gouse. Here it is with the ivories and with the original replacement grips:

Colt 1903 - $ 0
Replacement Grips - $ 0
New Barrel - $ 79
Restoration - $100
Engraving - $300

Having a really neat Colt that looks and shoots great that I'll never sell - PRICELESS

My other example is my 1893 1st Model Pocket Hammerless S&W Breaktop .32 that I also got for free. Again, a nickel gun with a horrible finish. Busted grips too. But tight and with an okay bore. Shot great. I had Gouse strip the little nickel remaining, engrave it and then finish it in an old style blue. I happened across the perfect mother-of-pearl S&W medallion grips and put them on too (even though they're not correct for the gun). Then I made a custom case out of an old cigar box.

 

[feralmerril]

I have slightly changed my thinking from a few years ago. I am not sure just what thread, or even if it was on this site or another. But what gave me pause was the anology of : If you owned a old 56 chev or 40 ford coupe that was original except for a few dents being pounded out, and badly faded paint, would you paint it and have the dents pounded out?
I am sure most of us would! Now if you have a 1950 target or triplelock that had bad blueing, but no worn pits etc, would you reblue it? Hard call! Especialy if you had a person who could blue it as original! If it was a smith, the factory would mark a star on it. Okay! But if someone could do a factory blue, not okay. I feel if you didnt tell a buyer it would be fraud. In reality it shouldnt be a frequent problem. Most of us can figuer out the economics of trying to do so. Price of sale of gun + cost of a fine reblue versus just selling gun adding cost of reblue we didnt invest in and going and buying a fine original probley isnt worth the difference in being shadey! And any small or large gain certainly isnt worth my honer or soul no matter the figuere!
As much as I like guns, they still are steel made by man and dont have a liveing soul. I am not one of those types that will hand you a pair of white gloves if you want to see my queens. I will probley observe your hands in a non obvious way to see if they look sweaty, and wipe the gun down after you leave in any case. Another funney hypothetical qurik. Lets say that 150 years ago there were 2 identical twin famous gunfighter outlaws or lawmen. Both brothers buy the exact same colt sa with same features. Both become folkheros. The only difference being one brother left his gun original and the other brother had custom grips, action job and custom sights put on, all identifing his perferences and taste. Today both guns by equaly famous brothers go in the same add on gun broker. Want to guess which gun goes higher? Okay, why do we tell modern guys not to customise their guns? Funny, aint it?

 

[deadin]

Today both guns by equaly famous brothers go in the same add on gun broker. Want to guess which gun goes higher? Okay, why do we tell modern guys not to customise their guns?

I don't have a problem with "modern" guys customizing their "modern" guns. It's when a "modern" guy decides to customize the "plain" gun from one of the gunfighter brothers that bothers me.