Reversed SWCs in .38 Special

DWalt

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A short while ago, I asked the question if anyone had ever tried loading 158 grain cast SWC bullets backward in a .38 Special case so they punch like a full wadcutter. I got lots of gratuitous opinions and musings, but no facts. So I tried it myself today - and it works fine.

I loaded a reversed 158 grain lead SWC, seated just deeply enough to completely cover the grease groove. I used 3.1 grains of Bullseye as a propellant. In my 6" K-38, my average MV with this load was 777.5 ft/sec with SD=25.2 ft/sec. Grouping at 25 yards was just as good as my usual 148 grain DEWC load with the same powder charge (MV about 850 ft/sec). And the holes in the target are nice and sharp.

Try it, you'll like it.
 
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backward wadcutter

Ha. I tried the same thing over 40 years ago, but had no way to chrono them. Since then I have wondered what distance they would go before the accuracy went away.

It's fun to look over the edge and see what will happen.
 
Sharp shouldered SWCs were made to cut holes just as clean as WCs, but they were easier to chamber.

Most bullets, like the SWCs, are rear heavy and require a minimum amount of rotational velocity to keep them from tumbling in flight. By turning them around you are making them front heavy and they should give better accuracy at extremely slow velocities. However, you are then eliminating the advantage of easier loading the SWCs were made for. If you want a WC, it's best to shoot a wadcutter and if you want to shoot them at extremely slow velocities use the hollow base versions, that is what they are made for. However, if that's all you have and that's what you want, then you are on the right track.
 
My purpose in performing this experiment was to demonstrate that reverse-loaded SWC bullets perform satisfactorily. And so they do. Grouping is equivalent to the DEWC bullets I normally use, and there is no sign of instability at 25 yards as evidenced by lack of any indication of yaw (keyholing). Regarding the "sharpness" of the holes produced on a paper target by full wadcutters vs. semi-wadcutters, there is a discernible difference - the flat nose is better in that regard, even though the SWC is not bad.

I put this information forward mainly as a matter of information should anyone else wish to duplicate my test. For PD use, the heavier SWC bullet loaded backwards might have a bit of performance edge over a conventional full wadcutter or a SWC loaded normally. At one time, there was a factory "Full Weight" wadcutter load with a 158 grain bullet, and by reversing a SWC, performance would be duplicated.
 
I put this information forward mainly as a matter of information should anyone else wish to duplicate my test. For PD use, the heavier SWC bullet loaded backwards might have a bit of performance edge over a conventional full wadcutter or a SWC loaded normally. At one time, there was a factory "Full Weight" wadcutter load with a 158 grain bullet, and by reversing a SWC, performance would be duplicated.

Yeah, but, then, why do something that you don't need to do? You are acting like the right bullets aren't available, and, that is a fallacy. Oh, wait, that's right, lots of you folks don't cast your own bullets and have to buy what is commercially available. MAN, that keeps slipping my mind!

See, here is what I have loaded in my M60 -13 and they are coming out of that all steel revolver @ over 1100fps and, yes, it is a 38spl! ;)
So, I'm not going to load anything backwards when I have something this good loading it correctly!

158grPinLoads2.jpg


:D :D :D :D :D (One smiley for each chamber in that M60!)

Leftside.jpg
 
Hardcast wadcutter bullets in the 148-150 gr weight are not hard to buy. That was my preferred defense load until I decided that a swaged 158 gr SWC-HP made more sense. Not hard to find those for sale either. Personally I don't see the point is loading a reversed SWC just to gain 10 grains of bullet weight over a regular full WC.
 
Gee, I'm almost afraid to bring this up, but how many know that during WWI, armor piercing rounds were made up by soldiers in the trenches by pulling rifle bullets and re-seating them backwards? And it worked.
 
Gee, I'm almost afraid to bring this up, but how many know that during WWI, armor piercing rounds were made up by soldiers in the trenches by pulling rifle bullets and re-seating them backwards? And it worked.

Now there's an experiment you can try, and let us know how well it works for you.

Skip, I think you just solved the ID tags for bullets debate.
 
Gee, I'm almost afraid to bring this up, but how many know that during WWI, armor piercing rounds were made up by soldiers in the trenches by pulling rifle bullets and re-seating them backwards? And it worked.

I confess that I don't understand how reversing an already FMJ bullet would make it penetrate armor any better. I have heard of loading military bullets backwards, with a light charge of pistol powder to make the '06 into a usable small game load.

I would have grave concerns about chamber pressure when simply reversing a rifle bullet in a case without making any changes to the powder charge.
 
My purpose in performing this experiment was to demonstrate that reverse-loaded SWC bullets perform satisfactorily. And so they do. Grouping is equivalent to the DEWC bullets I normally use, and there is no sign of instability at 25 yards as evidenced by lack of any indication of yaw (keyholing). Regarding the "sharpness" of the holes produced on a paper target by full wadcutters vs. semi-wadcutters, there is a discernible difference - the flat nose is better in that regard, even though the SWC is not bad.

I put this information forward mainly as a matter of information should anyone else wish to duplicate my test. For PD use, the heavier SWC bullet loaded backwards might have a bit of performance edge over a conventional full wadcutter or a SWC loaded normally. At one time, there was a factory "Full Weight" wadcutter load with a 158 grain bullet, and by reversing a SWC, performance would be duplicated.

DWalt,

I understand what you are getting at, just not why.

The .38 Mid-Range (25 Yd) Wadcutter at a reduced bullet weight was developed many years ago as a very specialized cartridge for a specific purpose.

Yes, there were 158 gr. full-load wadcutter cartridges at one time, and they fell out of use, and production, because there were better choices for 50 yd. target work. If you want to experiment with this sort f load, Lyman had a bullet, the 358432, which was a full weight wadcutter. It was available in either 148 or 160 gr versions. My 4 cavity throws 158 gr. with #2 metal. This is the bullet Skip Sackett has shown photos of.

The reason for the demise of the full power wadcutter was because of a loss of accuracy with this style bullet at ranges much beyond 25 yds. This is because the wadcutter has a poorer form stability factor than a SWC or RN bullet. Not necessarily enough to cause tumbling at 50 yds, but enough to cause group size to increase enough to reduce average scores. Where 1 X score could win or lose a match this was important.

Form Stability is why solid base wadcutters usually have a button nose, it improves form stability over a straight cylindrical wadcutter like the HBWC bullets usually are. Your reversed semi-wadcutters will have an even poorer form stability factor than a normal wadcutter, and accuracy will degrade over range even quicker. Again, they may not tumble at reasonable ranges, but they will not shoot as well as when loaded normally. You may need a machine rest to see the difference at ranges under 50 yds, but it will be there.

So far as cleanness of the holes cut in a paper target are concerned, if you think you can tell the difference between a full wadcutter and a semi-wadcutter you are kidding yourself.
 
Skeetler Skelton wrote about seating HBWC's backwards in the mid to late 70's in one his "Hipshot" columns in Shooting Times. He seated the Speer swagged soft lead HBWC over 5.0 grs of Unique and was what he advocated as a great SD round for the short barreled J-Frame revolvers he carried while going plain clothed.

Back in the day when it was written, there wasn't the plethora of factory "personal defense" ammo that we have today, and Skeeter must of had it right because when you look at the SD ammo selections of today, they all mostly employ a big HP cavity akin to the HBWC being seated backwards.

Kudos to the OP for experimenting and sharing his results.
 
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Howdy

Hi DWALT,
I commend you for trying. What if you would have cut your groups in half?
It doesn't hurt to take a peek into the different now and then.
I played with the same thing trying to get a accurate load for a 25-2.
It was erratic as I would get a great group out of it and the next would go to the normal 2"-2 1/2" @ 25 yards. I always thought the gun should shoot like a K-38 or 6" L-frame but couldn't find the magic combo.
I have a friend who tells me of a fellow who does it with his 52. He claims it works well and shoots great.
Just because there is an accepted way to do things doesn't mean it is the only way.
Thanks
Mike
 
Not sure I understand why you'd want to load the bullet backwards. Isn't the hole it makes the same size either way?

BTW, I have the 160 grain version of the Bond bullet Skip posted the picture of. Lots of fun to cast and shoot.
 
Skeetler Skelton wrote about seating HBWC's backwards in the mid to late 70's in one his "Hipshot" columns in Shooting Times. He seated the Speer swagged soft lead HBWC over 5.0 grs of Unique and was what he advocated as a great SD round for the short barreled J-Frame revolvers he carried while going plain clothed.

Back in the day when it was written, there wasn't the plethora of factory "personal defense" ammo that we have today, and Skeeter must of had it right because when you look at the SD ammo selections of today, they all mostly employ a big HP cavity akin to the HBWC being seated backwards.

Kudos to the OP for experimenting and sharing his results.

I loaded these for carry in a 2" snubby. Quite manageable recoil and a very effective close range self defense round. My wife's current model 60 carry load.

photo1_zps3867cfe4.jpg
photo4_zps5d114e4b.jpg


Sorry about the quality of the pics. :rolleyes: Best I could do on short notice! :o
 
25 yards is a good start. I believe that they will tumble. I would like to see a 50 & 75 yard target to see if they are starting to yaw.
 
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