Revolver Group Buy - First Poll - Interest Level

[HarrishMasher]

Hi All,
I case you didn't see the original post regarding the revolver group buy, here is the link:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/394838-idea-distributor-like-revolver-group-buy.html

Before I start polling for options, I need to take a poll to gauge the true level of interest. So please respond to the poll. I figure we need at least 500 definites to proceed.

I also put out the call in the original post for help designing the polls and coming up with all the options. But no one has responded. If you are interested in helping me out, please PM me and we can set up a time to have a phone conversation to desing the polls with all the options (Frame Type, Material Type, Barrel length, Caliber, etc). I'm not a S&W revolver expert and could use the help of someone who is. Please PM me if you are willing to help out.

HERE IS THE POLL QUESTION: (Please vote above)

If we put together a group buy for a revolver we collectively select the options for:

A) I will buy whatever revolver the group decides to make
B) I will only buy the revolver if ALL of my choices are reflected in the final product
C) I will only buy the revolver if SOME of my choices are reflected in the final product
D) I am not interested in a group buy revolver and I won't one buy one under any circumstances

 

[robertrwalsh]

Due to my unfortunate choice of residence states (People's Republic of California) I am out as the cost of getting a special run gun certified for sale here would almost certainly be prohibitive. If I were to vote (which I have not) I would only buy if the gun chosen was something I was seriously interested in. I would not buy a generic weapon just because of the group purchase.

 

[H Richard]

While this is a nice idea, it isn't practical. S&W will make up a special order, "IF" you order about at least 1000 guns exactly alike, at least 50% up front in advance, and it won't be much of a wholesale pricing. Availability would be around 8 months to a year. Now if you can get at least 1000 people to all agree on exactly the same features, willing to pay at least 50% up front, and willing to wait up to a year to receive it, then you might have a possibility.

 

[HarrishMasher]

OP Here:

Here is my email exchange with Bob at TALO. As you can see S&W requires 5000 units for a special order! I have asked him if maybe Talo would partner with the S&W Forum in making a special edition since it is unlikely we could reach 5000 units on our own. Or Talo would take the overage and stamp it with a different side plate. We will see what he says. This might stop us right in our tracks now. But at least NIL is an option!

Text of email:

JB, I believe you can get what you want without internal lock. The MIM parts are not negotiable. You can't ask them to make different parts for your guns.

I have a lot of experience in this process. S&W is not very interested in making special editions and not at all if they require extra engineering. They are asking us now for editions that are 5000 units +

I am not trying to discourage you just giving you the benefit of my experience. I think what you are trying to do is interesting. I'll do my best to make it work as long as your local dealer is included in the process.

Regards,

Bob


On Sep 22, 2014, at 10:23 AM, Jason > wrote:

Hi Bob,
I am beginning the process of working with forum members to discuss options we would be interested in (Frame Size, Caliber, Frame/Cylinder Material, Etc).

Two major issues keep coming up that I would like to settle up front...Internal Lock, and MIM parts.

From your experience is it possible to order a new SA/DA revolver without an Internal Lock and MIM parts, or are those pretty much required on any batch order?

Once I have the answers to that question, I can get a real gauge of how many people are actually interested, what revolver we want, and how many people are willing to put down a deposit.

I greatly appreciate your time and effort and will not bug you with this further until I have concrete number of people interested and ready to put down some cash, and an exact model we are interested in. Thanks Again!

 

[HarrishMasher]

Turns out it is actually 5000 units! I am working with Talo. But if they like the gun we are interested in, if we don't reach 5000 (which we won't), maybe they will take the rest. Just a thought.

While this is a nice idea, it isn't practical. S&W will make up a special order, "IF" you order about at least 1000 guns exactly alike, at least 50% up front in advance, and it won't be much of a wholesale pricing. Availability would be around 8 months to a year. Now if you can get at least 1000 people to all agree on exactly the same features, willing to pay at least 50% up front, and willing to wait up to a year to receive it, then you might have a possibility.

 

[Shooter 9]

4500 is a lot of guns to take, considering these would be guns we wanted and not what Talo wanted. Just my thoughts

 

[Hapworth]

Those members chiming in to naysay are invited to offer some constructive suggestions for overcoming the obstacles they're pointing out.

Difficult and unlikely things are accomplished every day with solutions-based approaches.

If you've nothing to offer but "why this won't work", plenty of other threads around here.

 

[Shooter 9]

Not sure what constructive thoughts can be offered now. We either get enough members to fill the 5K gun order or we get the distributor to pick up the overflow. Those seem to be the choices.

 

[Tom_R]

Lets still work the Process and see what we come up with. This will be fun.

If we can get guns made without the Internal Lock, whatever we don't take will taken. We can help get the word out there too.

The Key is making something that is different enough that it fills a niche, but can be done with off the shelf parts.

This can be done.

For Example, a 3" 7-shot 586 without an internal Lock?

They'll sell those.

a 5-Shot 3" 44 magnum also based off the L-Frame, finished in Blue? That is the perfect Trail gun right there.

So many options.

 

[BAM-BAM]

5000..........Its a Registered Magnum (approx. 5000 made 1935-40) or nothing......LOL

Last year S&W was cranking out guns as fast as possible to meet the demand/panic......... so I can see the 5000 unit requirement (at $500/unit that's $2.5 million)....... keep the line running cranking out "cheap" poly- guns unless the $$s are good. Or the 5000 unit requirement was intended to discourage the special runs without telling a Distributor a flat out.... NO!!

S&Ws stock is/was down last quarter ......IIRC, due to a drop of sales vs. 2013.

Maybe some "excess capacity" at S&W this year we can help them fill.......



Also I can't recall the Performance Center ever making a run of 5000 guns. Heck many are 250 units or less........

Maybe you/we are talking to the wrong part of S&W???????

 

[Green Frog]

Having been through the process of having what I specifically wanted built as a more-or-less custom one-off, I can only say that a lot of folks have responded by saying they wished Smith would build a Model 616... a stainless K-frame in 32 caliber boring, probably the 327 Federal Magnum I specified for mine. The K-32 is one of those guns that has come and gone a couple of times, but after the always-limited runs are over and sold out, the guys who were "asleep at the wheel" moan about the fact that they didn't "have a chance" to get one!

A new variation on a popular but discontinued model such as the Model 16/K-32 seems to me to be the simplest type of project to launch, and the most likely to sell successfully in the numbers that would be needed for S&W to make and the organizers and distributors to sell it.

Even though I already have one, a factory-built Model 616 would probably find its way into my safe if as the gentleman from TALO said it could be made without the infamous IL. The additional tooling costs of such a model would be minimal, since barrels and 6 shot cylinders from the Model 617 could be repurposed as was done on my custom piece. That should help persuade S&W it would be a feasible project.

JMHO ~ YMMV
Green Frog
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/260686-project-616-a.html

 

[DR505]

If it comes without the IL, I would be hard pressed to pass it up. A .327 Federal magnum would be a lot of fun. Other than that, I like BIG BORE revolvers. Heck, if it was a 3" .45 ACP I would take 2 with consecutive serial numbers, one for me, one for my son.

I don't need another .38/.357 mag. I might buy it if it was a .38/.357, but would use it for trade.

 

[Hapworth]

Lets still work the Process and see what we come up with. This will be fun.

If we can get guns made without the Internal Lock, whatever we don't take will taken. We can help get the word out there too.

The Key is making something that is different enough that it fills a niche, but can be done with off the shelf parts.

This can be done.

For Example, a 3" 7-shot 586 without an internal Lock?

They'll sell those.

a 5-Shot 3" 44 magnum also based off the L-Frame, finished in Blue? That is the perfect Trail gun right there.

So many options.

All good thoughts. I agree, at this stage getting the word throughout the forum so members know and can cast a vote is paramount; I've PMed Lee with a request toward this end.

In many ways, I think the biggest buyer-side obstacle is the lock, for which there is significant reason to think this build can delete. Otherwise, indications in thread responses and early polling show a significant amount of leeway in what final product members would be willing to buy.

I agree, something that suits consensus but fits within S&W's current capabilities is the smart play.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Some thoughts and questions..............


1.PC at the S&W web site doesn't have any revolvers listed on the new 620-Frame.............

2. Seems like the PC is the group we should be looking at....... they get parts from the "Mother Ship" and build short run "special interest" guns.

3. A 3" Ladysmith profile barrel, round butt, no lock, 6 shot.......PC 620-frame?? No ports Lots of comments in threads on the new K-frame about; "I'd buy a 3" one"

4. Remember Smith never throws anything away........ wonder if there is a stash of old/new stock frames somewhere; that would be of interest to 'us"?

 

[gmborkovic]

Im not a naysayer. Im going to follow this, Im interested. I would like to see a RM tribute type rev. in 3.5", .357 Mag. With Magnas on it.
Just my thought to kick off the constructive suggestions. Im not a fan of a commemorative with a stamped side plate, maybe a Sn. like "S&WCA 2796". OK, throw in a Humpback Hammer and diamonds on the grips. Dont want to forget the Nickel finish and wood box. OK! Im done, kill me. Mike 2796

 

[DR505]

Oh yes...forgot to mention...BLUE STEEL. Nickel is a non-starter for me.

Since short barrels are all the rage these days, about a 3" barrel seems right.

 

[Irn-Bru]

I'd be in regardless of what gun the group chooses.

 

[petepeterson]

Some thoughts and questions..............


1.PC at the S&W web site doesn't have any revolvers listed on the new 620-Frame.............

2. Seems like the PC is the group we should be looking at....... they get parts from the "Mother Ship" and build short run "special interest" guns.

3. A 3" Ladysmith profile barrel, round butt, no lock, 6 shot.......PC 620-frame?? No ports Lots of comments in threads on the new K-frame about; "I'd buy a 3" one"

4. Remember Smith never throws anything away........ wonder if there is a stash of old/new stock frames somewhere; that would be of interest to 'us"?

In 9mm, maybe? Oh, to dream...

 

[TTSH]

Due to my unfortunate choice of residence states (People's Republic of California) I am out as the cost of getting a special run gun certified for sale here would almost certainly be prohibitive.

It's going to be the same for the People's Republic of Massachusetts.

 

[Hapworth]

3. A 3" Ladysmith profile barrel, round butt, no lock, 6 shot.......PC K-frame?? No ports Lots of comments in threads on the new K-frame about; "I'd buy a 3" one"

Based on responses in the last couple threads on this potential build, and general observations on the forum over the years, I think something along these lines is what the most number of members could agree on, and many more would go ahead and buy even if it wasn't their first choice.

Based on available capability but giving it just enough special twist, revive the ultra rare fixed-sight, 3" Model 19.

- Build it on the new 66-8 set up, already in place.
- MIM parts fine.
- 6 shot.
- Round butt as per current builds.
- Factory "fish scale" grips like the current 66-8; easy for S&W, less expensive for us, and we all change grips out after the fact anyway.


To make it special:

- Delete the lock, which S&W has already shown willingness to do in recent special builds.
- Improve the front sight either with a factory insert, XS dot, or gold bead -- all of which S&W is currently offering on different builds.
- S&W factory high polish blue, offered on their website.
- PC tuning.

All of this is well-within current S&W capabilities, suits the tastes and needs of a high percentage of fellow members, and is distinct enough to be compelling as a rare one-shot offering.

 

[armorer951]

group buy

How about a S&W Forum Commemorative?? I'm not sure if they are still producing them, but our agency did one back in the 80's and only 103 units and cases were produced. Not a "custom" gun, per se, but had unique artwork, etc.

 

[steelslaver]

I would be interested. I would love to have it be a 5 shot 45 ACP on an L frame. 3" barrel. Unique enough to gather interest, instant collectable, cc, defense, backpack gun.
There are already many 357 variations available, most members have 1 or more. Not saying I would go for something else just my idea

 

[mchom]

Its possible

Since the Talo rep did indicate that a no lock gun was possible I think this could work. I think a lot more folks would be interested because of the no lock. I know I would absolutely be in this if its made with out the lock. I think a good question to ask is: "How many guns would the forum group have to commit to in order for Talo to move forward"
It sounds possible they might not need the whole 5k.

Not to discount many of the great options put forth but I think that sticking to a caliber that is a higher volume seller such as .357 vs .44 special (Although I would love a .44 sp) would be a better sell to the distributer.

Again, both questions need to be put forth to Talo

I can live with the MIM. I can live with round butt frame. I can live with any finish. I can live with diff calibers. But not having that hole drilled in the side is going to make me pony up the money. I am just guessing but I have a feeling a lot of folks will may also decide based on the IL.

 

[Hapworth]

How about a S&W Forum Commemorative??

There is some general agreement that although clean, traditional roll marks are preferred, something acknowledging that this is a S&W Forum special is called for: best suggestion so far has been unique serial numbers starting with SWF00.

 

[Maximumbob54]

686, 686+, 625, 60, 66, 627, I would do just about any of the current production steel frame revolvers in a NO ILS and break my arm reaching for my wallet. And I'm another that can live with MIM. I think at this point it's shown to last well enough. I know I've thundered some .44 magnum through my 629-6 that should have cracked anything and I have a friend that runs crazy named ammo through is. "Deer Grenade"... Goof ball. I would even buy another 629 if it didn't have the hole. And I would break both arms for a no hole 3" 629 like the current Talo offering.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I will admit I voted "Some"........but I recognize someone/the Group may come up with something I haven't thought of...... that will just tickle my fancy.

Never thought about a 3" 66; or that it would be a better concealed carry than a 2 1/2 or 4 inch model until I saw one in a "Gun Rag" in 1987.

So I've got an open mind..... about things I haven't dreamed of!

So keep an open mind as you vote!



To some posters .....ya there are a lot of .38/.357s already out there.... because that's what many , if not most, folks buy and S&W sells. There is a reason that a nice .32 cal. 16s are hard to find.... they never sold many new ones.

 

[Hapworth]

To some posters .....ya there are a lot of .38/.357s already out there.... because that's what many , if not most, folks buy and S&W sells. There is a reason that a nice .32 cal. 16s are hard to find.... they never sold many new ones.

I'm partial to .38/.357, though admit that anything from .38 to .45 ACP would satisfy me if we could get this project running, but your logic on why it ought to .38/.357 is the most cogent: it would likely appeal to the most buyers and so be the most likely to appeal to S&W.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Earlier I pulled a J-frame URL from the S&W website that indicated they could make a 342, no internal lock, in .44 Special. That should not be a hard gun to sell!

But this, wow!

- Build it on the new 66-8 set up, already in place.
- MIM parts fine.
- 6 shot.
- Round butt as per current builds.
- Factory "fish scale" grips like the current 66-8; easy for S&W, less expensive for us, and we all change grips out after the fact anyway.


To make it special:

- Delete the lock, which S&W has already shown willingness to do in recent special builds.
- Improve the front sight either with a factory insert, XS dot, or gold bead -- all of which S&W is currently offering on different builds.
- S&W factory high polish blue, offered on their website.
- PC tuning.

All of this is well-within current S&W capabilities, suits the tastes and needs of a high percentage of fellow members, and is distinct enough to be compelling as a rare one-shot offering.

Just add the SWF serial number! Nice!

***GRJ***

 

[jinx]

I have to agree with Hapworth on his design. I realize there are folks that want a caliber starting with a 4. But, I am taking into account what is posted here. I can't count the postings that want a 3 inch 38/357, fixed sight{gold bead or otherwise}. Just look at the demand for the model 64, 10, 13, 65, and lady smiths. All with snub or short barrels. If people can find any of the above mentioned they pay quite a bit for them.
This certainly will be a lesson in compromising or maybe a lot of disagreeing amongst the members. I hope not.

 

[k22fan]

If previous posts stating the revolver must be built out of existing parts are correct, this is an example of what can not be built:

[…] revive the ultra rare fixed-sight, 3" Model 19.

- Build it on the new 66-8 set up, already in place.
[…] S&W factory high polish blue, offered on their website. […]

Unless S&W is working on non-stainless frames they have not revealed to the public, 66-8 frames only exist in stainless steel. Bluing is a controlled oxidizing of steel. In layman's terms, rusting the surface but adding an extra oxygen atom to each rust molecule. Bluing doesn't work on stainless steel unless the stainless is first coated with iron.

Also, so far as we know, S&W would have to forge 3" 66-8 barrel sleeves and machine the 3" flanged barrels just for us.

The suggested fixed sights bring up another point. Again presuming S&W doesn't have future fixed sight frame introductions up their sleeve, use of the 66-8 frame would require Night Guard type fixed sights. The result would not look anything like the fixed sight 19s. However, using Night Guard sights is the only way I'd be on board to pay new gun prices for a fixed sighted revolver. I'd only be in because I could switch it to a standard adjustable with a screw driver. Since very few Night Guards sold, perhaps the revolver would appeal to more members if it came wearing adjustables and fixed sight fans used their screw drivers to swap sights.