Revolver Not Dead for LE Use

[Leiden]

I guess I'm unusual in that of the 750 or so sworn (2500 total including armed detention) in my Sheriff's Office I'm the last one carrying a S&W 45XX series sidearm..most have gone to plastic weapons years ago, or a variant of the 1911. I love the 45XX series and have used that along with a 649-2 .38 Bodyguard for an ankle gun for quite a while. As with the primary gun, most carry a plastic pistol as a second gun, if they carry at all, but I find the 649-2 does everything I need.

I practice with the 649-2..a lot. I like it's simplicity and carry a reload (Safariland Comp1 in a Split-Six) between my badge and primary on and off duty and practice the reload daily in dry-fire before I got to bed. Simply put, I feel comfortable with the revolver.

The other day I was looking at old photos of detectives in our office and saw the S&W 686 was the main primary weapon in the days before I started on the job. I happen to have a S&W 686-1 4" so this morning I tried the standard qualification with it and was surprised to shoot a 250 out of 250, and quite literally the tightest group I've done to date. It took some work to make the reloads smooth and easy, but I liked the challenge.

This year, 2011, I believe will be the last year we're allowed to qualify with revolvers as main guns.....even with that only those of us who are firearms instructors are grandfathered to carry them. The rank and file deputy is suppose to carry an auto, but very few of those carry J-Frames for backups.

I was talking to an old homicide detective at lunch about the 686 and have to admit I wouldn't feel under-gunned with it on the street. I found myself consciously watching the round count and anticipating the reload. While we have excellent range staff, I don't believe a single one is a proponent of using a revolver, but I'll see if I can get this 686 in under the wire before we start a new qualification for 2012 that is undoubtably anti-revolver.

My point is I think if one practices and does that religiously, the "advancement" in sidearms over the years from revolvers to autos for police work isn't really all that important. It was gratifying to significantly outshoot newer kids with plastic guns with an revolver that's been around long before they were born.

I think there are others out there would agree the revolver isn't dead for LE use. Now, if I could just get Ruger to make the GP100 in .41 Magnum or 10mm with moon clips.....I'd replace my 4506 in a heartbeat.

 

[Tunachaser]

My hat is off to you. I have owned many autos, still own a few, but all I am buying now is revolvers. I did order the new Ruger 1911, because I no longer own a .45. I carry a Colt Python most of the time, and when the Smith 19-5 2.5 gets here, that is what my daughter will carry. I love noone more than her, and will trust nothing other than a revolver for her safety. just my .02

 

[WC145]

Good on you. I stay qualified with my 586 L-Comp and wear it for work from time to time.

 

[Rolan_Kraps]

I think there are others out there would agree the revolver isn't dead for LE use. Now, if I could just get Ruger to make the GP100 in .41 Magnum or 10mm with moon clips.....I'd replace my 4506 in a heartbeat.

What is wrong with the S&W 610?

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

Leiden, I agree! Over the weekend I fired a S&W 4 inch tapered barrel Model 10 with .38 Special 158 RNL ammo. I chewed the bullseye of the target. Two young guys firing tupperware at even closer distances never even got close to the bullseye on their targets and were all over the paper. They kept staring at the middle aged guy firing an old wheelgun!

 

[dubshooter]

Yeah, I'm kind of wondering what's going to happen trying to qual with my J-Frame for a backup with the new qual.

 

[Leiden]

Yeah, I'm kind of wondering what's going to happen trying to qual with my J-Frame for a backup with the new qual.

Rumor is AZPOST will require the new qual for primary weapons and a "back-up" qual is left open to the agency. This this is the same logic that allows the separate qualificaton I believe for the Kel-Tec .380s. I imagine our current qual will be used for J-Frames and the like. The issue will be what if you want to use a 686 for a primary gun....you would have to shoot the new qual with that and it's just not made for it.

I think we'll keep the J-Frames, but those that use them will just have to be really good.

 

[Leiden]

What is wrong with the S&W 610?

Nothing..it's just not on the presently approved gun list. The GP-100 is by name, and .41 magnum and 10mm are by caliber. In a wierd way you're allowed to make your own gun as long as the combination works. For example, I see lots of Glock 35s with .357 SIG conversion barrels. The logic is the Glock 35 is approved and .357 SIG is an approved caliber, so a Glock 35 in .357 SIG is good to go even though it's not a factory offering.

 

[WC145]

If this is turning into a picture thread allow me to post a few that most of you have already seen.

My 586 L-Comp duty revolver -

The 586 in it's Black Hills Leather rig -

My custom 9mm 360J BUG -

 

[Leiden]

How do you like the moon clips for the 360J? I'm thinking about having my 649-2 converted to moon clips in that it may make reloads faster. I'm not sure if a moon clip can still be carried the same way as a speedloader, but it's worth a try if if speeds things up a bit. I'd like to see a .38 revolver take a higher score than a Glock 27 any day.

 

[8-Shot]

I'm with you Leiden. I never liked revolvers and was always a Glock man. I joined my 2nd agency and made it on the Pistol Team. I thought it was going to be steel shooting, but I was quickly informed it was PPC shooting and was all revolver your 1st year. I quickly found out how accurate a revolver is and fell in love with them. After probation we are allowed to switch to personally owned weapons and not the department issued glocks. I quickly began to ask the range master if I could carry a revolver. After several months of pleading I brought him a 4 inch model 627 8 shot .357 mag and showed him how quick i could reloade and told him the sig p220's and other authorized department guns that have "low capacity" are allowed on duty. He finally relented and allowed me to carry it. I carry it and double speedloader pouch that i carry 2 full moon clips in each and also an old 12 round looploader on the belt. We still have about 20-30 officers that were issued and carry revolvers. Most of them carry them in Jordan Trooper holsters and 12 round loaders. On the other hand our Depts. 40 person Honor Guard all are issued and carry revolvers for Honor Guard functions. Its quite a sight to see them do the 21 gun salute with revolvers.

 

[white cloud]

Leiden, I agree! Over the weekend I fired a S&W 4 inch tapered barrel Model 10 with .38 Special 158 RNL ammo. I chewed the bullseye of the target. Two young guys firing tupperware at even closer distances never even got close to the bullseye on their targets and were all over the paper. They kept staring at the middle aged guy firing an old wheelgun!

i frequently have the same experience with my m60 3". i am 58 and wear bifocals. at the indoor range i can usually out shoot the guys with the tupperware pretty easily. in some cases i think folks would be better off with a handful of rocks.

 

[WC145]

How do you like the moon clips for the 360J? I'm thinking about having my 649-2 converted to moon clips in that it may make reloads faster. I'm not sure if a moon clip can still be carried the same way as a speedloader, but it's worth a try if if speeds things up a bit. I'd like to see a .38 revolver take a higher score than a Glock 27 any day.

I love the moonclips, but since it's a 9mm the short rounds are faster to load than the same gun in .38spl with moonclips. The longer rounds tend to wobble in the clips. If you have your gun modified, aggressive chamber chamfering will make it easier. I had that done to my 586 L-Comp and it really helped.

Should you choose to have your gun modified, I've found that regular speed loader pouches will usually accomodate two loaded moon clips. I carry two in each pouch for my L-Comp.

 

[goldenbb]

The success of Glock is due mainly to marketing. I saw a female armored car company employee on the way into work yesterday and she had a Glock 22 with +2 extension on the mag. I thought to myself, what overkill for that job!

 

[27145]

I am retired from NYPD. I carried a 4 inch .38 revolver for 12 years until I transitioned to a 9mm 5946. I regretted not staying with a revolver. I had the gunbelt loose in a swivel holster to hold the 38. It was comfortable as hell. I switched to the 9 mm rig and started developing a lower back ache. You wear the 9mm rig with a safariland holster. It has to be tight around your waist with belt keepers.

Just before I retired I was in a police car accident where I was parked and got rear ended. They did x rays of my back and told me I was developing arthritis in my lower back and that was at 40 years of age.

Unfortunately I was in a shoot out where the perp fired a shot at me. I returned fire with a Colt det special and hit him 3/3, so I know revolvers are a great defense weapon.

 

[WC145]

The success of Glock is due mainly to marketing. I saw a female armored car company employee on the way into work yesterday and she had a Glock 22 with +2 extension on the mag. I thought to myself, what overkill for that job!

Really? IMO, whatever you feel you need on the job is fine as long as you know how to use it.

I carry my L-Comp on duty from time to time and to court but my usual load out is a Springfield .45acp 1911, my 9mm 360J, a 12ga shotgun, and a SIG 556 Classic rifle. Overkill? I don't know, you tell me. I live and work in a quiet rural area but who knows what the next person I deal with will bring.

 

[Catshooter]

I think a four inch stainless N frame in .45 ACP would rock. Pencil barrel, round butt please. Especially if fired indoors. Those .357 are too damn loud for this kid.


Cat

 

[Leiden]

I think a four inch stainless N frame in .45 ACP would rock. Pencil barrel, round butt please. Especially if fired indoors. Those .357 are too damn loud for this kid.


Cat

While I just carry a revolver as a back-up at the moment, when I went through the firearms instructor school we had to qualify with a revolver. I chose my S&W 625-6 Mountain Gun in .45 Colt, which is sort of what you're describing. While I never carried it on-duty, as I qualified with it I was issued the duty ammo - 255 gr. Speer Gold Dots. I remember looking at it and just thinking that from the business end all you would see are large hollow points and that's sort of intimidating.

I will say this though, in the revolver portion of the school I did like that I could look over at my partner and see the outline of the cases in the cylinder telling me the revolver was loaded.... My current partner and I went to a non-cop-friendly judge for a search warrant and he made us take our weapons off before coming back to his chambers. As I unloaded my pistol I took the round out of the chamber and put it back in the magazine. I watched my partner do the same thing and that's when we both realized he's been carrying a Glock 17 WITHOUT a round in the chamber since January's qualification. I wasn't so happy....maybe some people NEED revolvers.

 

[luis]

Most department do not drop guns for plastic unless money is the issue. My agency set a final drop date for revolvers. A little voice told me the issue was that they did not want to carry extra revolver ammo and repair cost.

Several of us that wanted to keep revolvers went before the board and offered to pay for our ammo and all repair cost. The attorney added a little surprise trying to get us to drop the idea. He added the requirement that all duty and off duty revolver get sent back to S&W once a year for a safety inspection which meant that we would have to have spare guns. We all had spares so it was not an issue.

Something like this might work for you when 2012 rolls around.

 

[Leiden]

Most department do not drop guns for plastic unless money is the issue. My agency set a final drop date for revolvers. A little voice told me the issue was that they did not want to carry extra revolver ammo and repair cost.

Several of us that wanted to keep revolvers went before the board and offered to pay for our ammo and all repair cost. The attorney added a little surprise trying to get us to drop the idea. He added the requirement that all duty and off duty revolver get sent back to S&W once a year for a safety inspection which meant that we would have to have spare guns. We all had spares so it was not an issue.

QUOTE]

I don't think it is so much that we can't have revolvers, but that the qualification is changing. The state qualification we've all been using with autos the last 15 to 20 years is actually a "revolver qualification." The courses of fire are in six or 12 round multiples, with reloads when more that six rounds are required.

The new qualification is obviously for autos only as the first string from 25 yards is draw and fire seven rounds...it's all timed of course. There are also additional reloads, empty gun and tactical, that need to be accomplished, along with movement. All in all, it's a great qualification and it's definately ups the requirements for LE officers, but it'd take a true revolver guy to clear the course with a good score. So, it's not that they're saying we can't have them, but that "most" guys that have a .38 J-Frame, and don't practice with it, probably won't make the score as reloads will have to be second nature. Empty gun and tactical reloads with a revolver are slow and the time limits are set up for autos..

While I'm a 250/250 shooter with an auto on the present course (it's an extremely easy course you could pass with your eyes closed), I shot a 245/250 when we shot the new course and the one I pulled was on time, not accuracy. I'd like to try it with a 686, but it'll be tough. It's obvious most see the revolver is dead and want plastic guns.