BigBill
Absent Comrade
The Russians ordered thousands of the s&w 44 cal Russian revolvers in blue and nickel finishes. I’m surprised we don’t see any of them for sale on today’s market?
Russian 44 cal revolvers?
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They were all top breaks. Might want to post this in the Antiqus section of the Forum.
The Russian contract revolvers have the roll stamp in Cyrillic print, atop the barrel. Some made their way back to the USA but not vast quantities (or so it seems). IIRC about 130,000 (someone with the "book" quantity of revolvers produced and delivered feel free to step in) revolver were either all shipped to Russia or most shipped and some later cancelled or refused (when Russia started making their own copies). Also, Russia, toward the end, felt they didn't need to pay their bill. Nearly bankrupt S&W. The 3rd models usually have 1874 stamped inside a lengthwise diamond somewhere on the frame near the trigger guard.
In addition to the S&W Orders, the Russians had their own copies made from Ludwig and Lowe, and the Tula Arsenals.
Some say, (and I am one of those people that feel) the Tula Arsenal copies were superior to the S&W Russian revolvers, odd as that may sound, the Tula Arsenal models are very well made. I have an excellent Tula Arsenal with no import marks (e.g. as if it came back to the USA in a GI duffle bag in either WWI or WWII time frame. Very odd with this, specific, Tula Arsenal, it comes with a letter from Roy Jinks to the previous owner (Greg Dust, who I purchased it from about 25 years ago) explaining the entire Model 3 scenario, with sharpened dated to the Russian Copies, especially ... "this" Tula Arsenal, by serial number. That was surely a nice gensture by Roy. I have never seen a S&W historical letter on another gun that was not a S&W manufacture.
I found it very odd, and very kind, that Roy took the time to write a "letter" (on S&W letter head) for a Tula Arsenal copy of the S&W Model 3 Russian by serial number. I also found that very nice for Roy to explain so eloquently on a non- S&W manufactured gun (with exception of some of the Rollin White patent infringement / aversion models e.g. Marlin, copies and others.
Also, those S&W Model 3 Russians that were-over run contract guns, later sold to the U.S. market, have the roll stamp and words in English, with "REISSUSE" at the end of the scroll.
Nice guns all, but most of them show up in lower condition grades. An excellent condition, matching number gun, R1, R2 or R3 are not too common but they are out there. A nice "cut for stock", with the correct ... same condition stock ... Russian in excellent condition is a sight to behold. If you're a S&WCA member and can see the Club posts, a few members (CB is one of them) has some gorgeous Russians, one that is just about stone-cold new and a few more almost as nice, plus a full line of all S&W Single Action revolvers.
Do some quick research on the internet and on this forum ... you'll be surprised at what your research will reveal but always verify, in print, with Jinks, Neal & Jinks, Blue Book of Gun Values and SCSW4 (by Supica & Nahas).
Advise you stay clean away from the worn out dogs, rougher conditions, refinished and mismatched SNs.
Hope that helps, Sal Raimondi MODEL3SW
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I suspect that most of the Russian contract S&Ws were recycled into other firearms during WW2. During the early 1980s I had an acquaintance who was a Russian languages professor at OSU. Once a year he would take a group of students on a tour of Russia for a few weeks. One time when we were talking firearms he mention that in a very rural district in Russia he saw a railroad security officer carrying a S&W style top break revolver. He remembered thinking "I wonder if he actually has any working ammo for that thing." I'd bet any ammo available was pre WW1 and poorly stored.
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A bit of an overstatement that "any" of these are not seen for sale. However, the Russians had a few major wars and a bunch of minor ones between the 19th and 20th centuries, so the number of surviving examples is probably small, and the number of re-imported examples even smaller, especially in collectible or even functioning condition. Save your pennies for a nice one when they come up for sale...
While I cannot attest to the veracity of the data in the link below, they seem worth the time for a read through ...
Smith & Wesson Number Three Russian Models
Also, of interest, see: The Russian Smith & Wesson Revolvers - The First Model
>>> enjoy, Sal Raimondi, Sr. ( MODEL3SW / ANTIQUESMITHS )
Smith & Wesson Number Three Russian Models
Also, of interest, see: The Russian Smith & Wesson Revolvers - The First Model
>>> enjoy, Sal Raimondi, Sr. ( MODEL3SW / ANTIQUESMITHS )
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I agree with Murphdog,
The Germans severely bombed the Soviet Union during WWII and during the invasion destroyed many cities. The call to arms would have put a lot of these old Smiths back to work fighting a horrible War and likely the majority ended up buried in the mud on some unnamed battle field.
Even the history of this country called to arms a lot of older weapons during WWII if you do some research. As an example the Military used some old obsolete Double actions from the late 1890's to guard harbors and critical storage facilities.
Murph
The Germans severely bombed the Soviet Union during WWII and during the invasion destroyed many cities. The call to arms would have put a lot of these old Smiths back to work fighting a horrible War and likely the majority ended up buried in the mud on some unnamed battle field.
Even the history of this country called to arms a lot of older weapons during WWII if you do some research. As an example the Military used some old obsolete Double actions from the late 1890's to guard harbors and critical storage facilities.
Murph
A friend of mine from "White" Russian lineage showed me the top break S&W .44 Russian model that his great grandfather dug up out of hiding to save the family when the "Reds" came through with orders to kill all "Whites" with ties to the Czar. His family had served the Czar's family for over a century and was slated for execution. According to legend the old man dug the revolver up from its secured location and shot the guards that were holding them for a politburo flunky. The family then managed to escape to the sea and obtained safe journey to America. It was one of the Russian models with funky trigger guard, I do remember it being in relatively good condition, with all operations working fine.
orbruce
SWCA Member
There were ten Russian contract guns for sale in a Rock Island Action last year, including an experimental model. Eight of the guns sold with prices ranging from $8625 to $1380. The two that did not sell were estimated $22,500 to $35,000 and $16,000 to $27,500. They were all from the Joe Leiper collection.
I believe there was another Russian contract gun for sale earlier this year.
B. Mower
I did not follow that auction but had I seen it, I would not have bid on those higher end Russians (or any higher end Model 3) unless I examined it ... in hand.
While the appraisers and examines may try their best to describe, pictures are not the be all and end all ... NOTHING replaces a hands-on examination.
If after a hands-on examination, they meet muster, only then would I take action unless I felt there was a shill or joker bidder in crowd, running up the price.
If during an auction there is actually someone trying to run the numbers up and when the hammer falls they are left the winner how does the seller and or shill or auction house deal with it? Sorry if I seem naïve on the subject, does the shill somehow escape actually paying the price or does the seller eat it? I've played poker with a team of characters that beat me out of a bit of money and then split the proceeds, and do understand how someone could run the price of something up and then after initially seeming to be interested then drops out but what if he got stung in his own sting?
Back when I belonged to the OGCA I saw a Russian contract S&W revolver with Japanese Navy markings and US Army WW2 bring back papers. I didn't appreciate at the time how rare that must have been or the interesting journey that revolver must have taken in it's life.
I had a S&W Russian that I got on a trade back in early 70s. No foreign markings. 6" with hard rubber grips. I was in my 20s at the time and wasn't into such things. I don't remember what I did with it but wasn't a killer trade or sale or I would remember it. I wish I had all the pistols and revolvers that went through my hands in 60s & 70s. Many were worth practically nothing compared to prices now.
It is not illegal for the owner of a certain gun to bid up his gun(s) on auction day, however, (in my opinion) is ... at least ... a bit sleazy and certainly deceptive.
Usually groups of sellers team up ... you bid on mine, I'll bid on yours, etc. STILL not illegal.
Should the shill bidder have the highest bid, wait a few months and you'll see that same gun re listed at auction again.
Essentially, should they be the high bidder ... owner or affiliate ... they should actually PURCHASE the piece paying the full boat hammer price & buyers' premium. I don't know that it exactly works like that but that is what SHOULD happen when a shill or associate is the high bidder.
No matter how excited I may be about a certain, odd or rare S&W for sale, the moment I get a whiff of a shill bidder ... I'm packing up and leaving.
That stuff drives me crazy and probably jaundiced my sentiments about auctions in general. I know how it works in the auto auction business to some degree and figured it must somehow manifest itself in nearly every auction venue. I completely agree that someone is responsible for payment when the hammer goes down, one would think that the auction house would frown on bogus deals like that but all they are interested in is the bottom line. On the other hand I know people that absolutely love the auction business and because they are adept at it's nuances make good money and enjoy themselves in the process. I guess its best not to swim in shark infested water unless your in a cage and carrying a bang stick.
Shill bidding is viewed by the Justice Department as illegal—it is federal mail and wire fraud.
Former Owner Of Mastro Auctions Sentenced To 20 Months In Federal Prison In Shill-Bidding Scam | USAO-NDIL | Department of Justice
Three indicted in sale of fake painting on eBay - CNET
Competitive Hype
Let the buyer beware!
The few Auctions that I attended as I recall were actually very intimidating. I remember specifically being blown out of the water several times by competition bidders. They weren’t Shill bidders. I knew these guys for the most part. They just really wanted the antique and got caught up in a peeing contest. I raised my paddle a total of 3 times at one auction only to get swarmed and overwhelmed by other bidders willing to pay ( in my opinion) “way” more than market value!
I’m not saying Shill bidding doesn’t happen, but in my experience you have to be willing to go to ridiculous heights to even see them.
If you set your limit and stick to it shill bidding becomes a non issue. Of course you won’t win a lot of auctions but over the years I did manage to win several way below market.
When they list thousands of guns for sale there are always sleepers!
We all know it’s exactly the same experience at a gun show. One dealer is selling a Model 3 for $6000. Three rows over the exact same gun in comparable condition for $2,200!
Murph
Let the buyer beware!
The few Auctions that I attended as I recall were actually very intimidating. I remember specifically being blown out of the water several times by competition bidders. They weren’t Shill bidders. I knew these guys for the most part. They just really wanted the antique and got caught up in a peeing contest. I raised my paddle a total of 3 times at one auction only to get swarmed and overwhelmed by other bidders willing to pay ( in my opinion) “way” more than market value!
I’m not saying Shill bidding doesn’t happen, but in my experience you have to be willing to go to ridiculous heights to even see them.
If you set your limit and stick to it shill bidding becomes a non issue. Of course you won’t win a lot of auctions but over the years I did manage to win several way below market.
When they list thousands of guns for sale there are always sleepers!
We all know it’s exactly the same experience at a gun show. One dealer is selling a Model 3 for $6000. Three rows over the exact same gun in comparable condition for $2,200!
Murph
Although this has gotten off topic and I apologize to the O.P. I do appreciate the insight offered by other members.
For those of us that have the experience and knowledge of auction practices I am sure it can be a very interesting way to pass time and even make a little money along the way or add a piece to a collection.
The collection of these old Russian revolvers would probably necessitate the use of auction houses and might possibly have started someone down the educating road of auction bidding practices.
In the end the old adage of "You pay your money and you take your chances" probably holds true. I've gotten caught up in how far my urine could pass to only get beaten by a better squirter. I learned my lesson and set my limits, end of story.
For those of us that have the experience and knowledge of auction practices I am sure it can be a very interesting way to pass time and even make a little money along the way or add a piece to a collection.
The collection of these old Russian revolvers would probably necessitate the use of auction houses and might possibly have started someone down the educating road of auction bidding practices.
In the end the old adage of "You pay your money and you take your chances" probably holds true. I've gotten caught up in how far my urine could pass to only get beaten by a better squirter. I learned my lesson and set my limits, end of story.
