Russian Reverse Engineering

[THE PILGRIM]

If you had asked me yesterday if the Russians had reverse engineered anything, I would've said sure.
They impounded one of our B-29s and reversed engineered the Tupolev TU-4 Bull.
Today I was gassing up when I see interesting looking motorcycle and sidecar drive in.
I walk over and look at it, it looked an older model BMW. Except that it looked like a brand-new older model BMW.
When I asked the driver what it was he said it is a 2013 URAL. Made in Russia.
And it is a reverse engineered copy of a 1940 BMW motorcycle.

IMZ-Ural - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bob R]

The funny thing about the B29s they used to reverse engineer their planes from was they were the early ones, and we had enough problems with them and we (the US) knew the plane and engines. The Russians, not so well.

Russian B-29 Clone — The TU-4 Story, by Wayland Mayo

http://steeljawscribe.com/2007/04/30/red-bulls-of-replication-the-b-29-and-tu-4-bull

bob

 

[G-Mac]

There's also an old-style Royal Enfield one-lunger built in India.

 

[Marshwheeling]

I believe at least a couple of list members have contemporary Ural rigs.

The modern version has been improved over the 1938 design in many respects, but as far as I know, today's Urals still use a roller crank oiled by slingers on the crank webs. That design was good for 40,000 miles in the BMWs of the 60s, before the slingers filled up with centrifugally-impacted sludge and stopped feeding oil to the big ends. That was extraordinary longevity in its day, but since 1970, BMW motorcycles have used plain bearings fed by pressurized oil; the bottom ends can last 400,000 miles, and routinely go over 200k.

I have no idea how long the roller-crank Urals are lasting on modern oils.

 

[TAROMAN]

And early Russian diesel locomotive engines were copies of the Fairbanks Morse engines in the submarines we sent them in WWII.

 

[LVSteve]

OK, now I am time travelling back to my youth when there were a bunch of Soviet bloc motorcycles available. I don't think anybody I knew had a Ural, but for sure there were plenty of Cossacks about. They were a cheap, 175cc 2-stroke that got you there and built by the Ural crowd. cossack classic motorcycles Classic Images - Classic Motorbikes

Another bike in a similar vein was the MZ. My buddy had a TS 150 and it went well enough and was reliable. However, I was never convinced by the drum front brake on a bike of that size. File:TS 1501.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Marshwheeling]

There's also an old-style Royal Enfield one-lunger built in India.

The current Enfields are much improved, too, with electric start and fuel injection. But they still look like a 1953 Enfield. There is a small but steady market for them here, driven by nostalgia. A friend is a dealer, so I have ridden a few. They still ride like a 1953 Enfield.

 

[LVSteve]

The funny thing about the B29s they used to reverse engineer their planes from was they were the early ones, and we had enough problems with them and we (the US) knew the plane and engines. The Russians, not so well.

Russian B-29 Clone — The TU-4 Story, by Wayland Mayo

Red Bulls: Of Replication, the B-29 and TU-4 Bull | Steeljaw Scribe

bob

I seem to recall reading that Tupolev pleaded with Stalin to let him simplify the fuselage design to do away with the need for panels that tapered in thickness. Tupolev believed (probably correctly) that this was one complexity too far and that replicating it would delay the project. By all accounts Stalin ignored his advice.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

And early Russian diesel locomotive engines were copies of the Fairbanks Morse engines in the submarines we sent them in WWII.

Fairbanks Morse? I've seen them in cotton gins.

 

[G-Mac]

I used to race motocross on Jawa/CZs, made in Czechoslovakia. I had two...a 1973 250cc and a 1974 380cc. These were fairly bulletproof motorcycles, except for the dry clutch.

 

[Marshwheeling]

Another bike in a similar vein was the MZ. My buddy had a TS 150 and it went well enough and was reliable. However, I was never convinced by the drum front brake on a bike of that size. File:TS 1501.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have had a couple of TS250s, and still have one. The brakes are quite good, actually. It is one of the nicest E. Euro 2-strokes. I gave 3 1/2 Jawas for the one I have now, and consider it a good swap. We don't see many of them here, but in the 80's the MZs were quite popular in GB as courier bikes.

 

[BigBill]

The Japanese early motor cycles were over build because they had no CAD system at the time to see where they could cheapen the metal so it could pass a stress test. I had Suzuki TS-100, TS-125, TS-250, TS-400'$. If you made sure the oil injection was filled and used the correct oil they ran forever. My 1980 Suzuki gs 750L was another awesome bike. I advertised for wanted TS bikes and a guy said he had a gs 750 I got it for $150 and she ran smooth like a Cadillac. The 750 is still used in the GSXR today with upgrades. A Suzuki 1200 bandit was my next bike while my son had a
GS-400 that red lined at 17,000 rpm. Suzuki I love them.

I been eyeing the Ural for a while now because of the side car and live axle. I was thinking about a all season ride with ice spike rear tires for the winter. The Russians copied a 1939 bmw.

 

[perrazi]

we used to have Fairbanks-morse switch engines. they would anything, at about 10mph.

 

[Marshwheeling]

I always thought of myself as a BMW rider until I counted my bikes and realized I had more Suzukis. Mine are mostly 4-stroke singles, but Conchita's first bike was a GS425E that we paid $225 for. Six speeds and a gear indicator. The 450s and 500 twins that succeeded it over the years have all been sweet bikes.

 

[Kinman]

The major problem with the roller crank design is it really limits rpm. The Urals have a top speed of about 65mph, thats a sustained top speed, they will run up a little higher but you are going to run into problems if you try to maintain much over 65 for very long. It doesn't really matter what type of lubricant you put in them, you are limited to Russian bearing material, which is about on par with Chinese. They finally went in with Ducati and worked out a better ignition system, along with another company for better shock absorbers and braking systems. I have toyed with the idea of owning one and have owned two BMW motorcycles of '78 and '82 vintage. I know a guy that owns a Ural Patrol and during the last big snowstorm that basically crippled the local area he was the only guy that made it to work at Boundary County Hospital, he just put on his snowmobile suit and locked the outer wheel and drove to work easy as pie.

 

[rojodiablo]

The Japanese early motor cycles were over build because they had no CAD system at the time to see where they could cheapen the metal so it could pass a stress test. I had Suzuki TS-100, TS-125, TS-250, TS-400'$. If you made sure the oil injection was filled and used the correct oil they ran forever. My 1980 Suzuki gs 750L was another awesome bike. I advertised for wanted TS bikes and a guy said he had a gs 750 I got it for $150 and she ran smooth like a Cadillac. The 750 is still used in the GSXR today with upgrades. A Suzuki 1200 bandit was my next bike while my son had a
GS-400 that red lined at 17,000 rpm. Suzuki I love them.

I been eyeing the Ural for a while now because of the side car and live axle. I was thinking about a all season ride with ice spike rear tires for the winter. The Russians copied a 1939 bmw.

Actually, the GSXR went to water cooled in the early 1990's. None the less, the basic design of the GS 750 was truly the 'Chevy 350' of the motorcycle world, along with the KZ1000 Kawasakis.
The last of the GSXR's I raced were 1996, and they shared nothing with the GS series other than displacement. Everything was totally different; the neat thing is for privateer racers, they can still make some respectable speed with the old bikes- and they do not require quite as much money to run them.

 

[jag312]

Besides the Ural motorcycle, they make a copy of a Nikon camera and lenses, a Hasselblad camera and lenses, and a LAW rocket. Stalin liked Packards, so the Soviet Union made copies of an early 1940s Packard. I believe it was called a ZIS.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Besides the Ural motorcycle, they make a copy of a Nikon camera and lenses, a Hasselblad camera and lenses, and a LAW rocket. Stalin liked Packards, so the Soviet Union made copies of an early 1940s Packard. I believe it was called a ZIS.

Wayback in WW the second time, lets keep on doing this until we get it right, we sent the USSR a lot of stuff.
At one point the Russians asked for a large sedan. It was decided by somebody that we send them the complete plans and tooling for a prewar Packard sedan.
That car was manufactured for number of years by the Ruskies as the ZIL.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Actually, the GSXR went to water cooled in the early 1990's. None the less, the basic design of the GS 750 was truly the 'Chevy 350' of the motorcycle world, along with the KZ1000 Kawasakis.
The last of the GSXR's I raced were 1996, and they shared nothing with the GS series other than displacement. Everything was totally different; the neat thing is for privateer racers, they can still make some respectable speed with the old bikes- and they do not require quite as much money to run them.

A few years ago one of my associates was on a larger Suzuki, 1000cc I think, cutting across between Kingman and the dam.
He was up around 100mph and everthing was going well!
When he woke up sometime later out in the desert, he attempted to reconstruct what had happened.
He remembered seeing something small and green in the road, just before he hit it. Bottle, maybe.
The doctors all asked him 'how long were you unconscious?'
Of course he really didn't know for sure.
So be sure and check your watch before you get knocked out.

 

[OFT II]

The Russians cloned the B-29 into the Tu-4 and also copied the C-47. That model was called the Li-2. If it works well there's no need to change it.