S&W in 455 Eley

[dsf]

Just won the attached off GB and have a few questions:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/743560843

Based on the serial number of 64244 can anyone narrow down DOB?

The grips and bluing look original to me and that the original chambering hasn't been fiddled with - yes? There may be a spot of rust on the right side of the barrel, can't really tell.

I don't see any "BNP" proofs on what I presume would be an England or Canada bound revolver, or is it not?

I don't reload for the 455, I presume it's the MkII and not the longer MkI but can't tell. I reload for about 80 other calibers including some odd stuff. I tend to think the 455 will be similar to loading for the 45 AR (not powder measure of course) & no surprises, any tips on what works is appreciated.

 

[22hipower]

Can't offer much information, supposedly all were completed between 1915 and 1917. While you're waiting for it to arrive you might want to read through this research thread if you haven't seen it already:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...read-post139653745.html?526646=#post139653745

Quite a lot of information available if you use the research button at the top of the page.

From the pictures I can't see obvious refinishing but it is surprising there aren't any British acceptance stamps or other military stamps. Maybe post additional pictures when you receive it. Good luck.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[Hondo44]

Congrats, that's a beauty and pretty good deal.

You have a British Svc revolver 455 Hand Ejector - 2nd Model. It's undoubtedly from a group shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Dec 1917 and never left the states., hence no English import/proof/export stamps.

It appears to be all original and not converted from its original cartridge, 455 Mark II service cartridge; interchangeable with the 455 Eley.

See full detail below for your version #3:

THERE ARE THREE BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks, but those in the 3rd group (3.B.) are actually the same as those in the 1st group. “When” roll marked with the cal., they are roll marked only SMITH & WESSON 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book name’ references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer. S&W historical letters usually list the cartridge as the 455 Colt (the American equivalent cartridge, but the length of the 455 Mk I), and occasionally, 455 Eley.

This is not TO be confused with the British name for the revolver “MK II” for the 455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamped MK II on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The WWI British contract Colt is marked ".455 ELEY", different than The S&W 455 marking.

They are:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, chambered for .455”: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, numbered in the 44 Spl serial range. The original chamberings are unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority of which shipped by Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 (not all inclusive) went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 10007. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].

The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.

2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] completed Jan. 19, 1915. Thus creating 63* duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version “.44 HE 1st Model TL” chambered in .455 in #1., numbered in the 44 serial number range.

*There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), #s 1104-3320 in the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.

There’s also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s (the early 666 and the late 691)#5462 to #15376 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version below) #s 5462 up thru #10007, and #12,000 thru the #14,000s in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.


3.A. “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions:
1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and
2. the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455.
The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.

By Feb 1916 724* were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Another 15** in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500*** .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].

*””Roy's comments on that model might be helpful here [regarding an original Factory .45 Colt # 747xx that shipped on May 4, 1917]: "Between April and June 1917 Smith & Wesson manufactured 700 units of 2nd Models that are listed in the manufacturing records as .45 Colt caliber. Unfortunately the manufacturing records did not record serial numbers. The shipping records for this model list, in this same time period, the sale of 703 units, but the shipping records do not list the caliber. I am positive that the sale of these 703 units are the .45 Colt listed in the manufacturing records. The extra 3 units could have been manufactured from revolvers that had already been assembled. ”Roy Jinks” Bob (Bettis1)

“The 727 [724]number could be correct but there have only been a small number that are from this shipment, less than 20 documented.” Jim Fisher ‘bmg60’
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139085603

**“The run of 15 with consecutive serial numbers, made in 1916 are all commercial, #46748 from that range is documented. There is no cal markings on this gun and the only other markings are the standard. Roy had to research the build records to find them because the shipping records didn’t list the Cal. The front sights on these factory chambered for.45 Colt is a little higher [than 455 revolvers]. This is the only one of the 15 that is known. Roy said he guessed the other 14 were for a shipment to some other country.” Jim Fisher ‘bmg60’ http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...d-model-hand-ejector-45-lc.html#post139086401

***Canadian military shipments of 14,500:

-1500 Shipped after Aug. 1915
-850 Shipped thru December 24th, 1915
-150 Shipped thru March 31st, 1916
-6,000 Shipped thru July 22nd, 1916
-6000 Shipped February 10, 1917
At least 1 shipped July 29th, 1916, see post #10: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...5-455-hand-ejector-45-colt.html#post139027072


3.B. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, chambered for .455”: “As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters], Triple Lock frames [like #1. above chambered in .455]. These guns are also numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

 

[Toyman]

The gun looks very good and the wood in the grips look to have better grain and color than normal.
Nice buy !

 

[Jack Flash]

...

I don't reload for the 455, I presume it's the MkII and not the longer MkI but can't tell. I reload for about 80 other calibers including some odd stuff. I tend to think the 455 will be similar to loading for the 45 AR (not powder measure of course) & no surprises, any tips on what works is appreciated.

I believe these were chambered for the longer Mk I so naturally Mk II could also be fired, just like you can fire .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum.

Lyman Reloading Manuals from the 1960s had loading data. So does Pet Loads by Ken Waters. You may not want to use loading data that is upwards of 50 years old. I have without problems. Hornady makes a 255 grain, ,454" lead bullet that works well. Buffalo Arms sells cases in both lengths. Go to their website and search for ".455" or ".455 Webley".

 

[Valmet]

Thank you for all of the great info on these guns Hondo!

 

[cgt4570]

Beautiful gun! I have it's slightly less attractive twin. Mine has British proofs and suffered an aftermarket buff and reblue at some point. I've shot factory Fiocchi and Hornady in mine with great accuracy as well as my own handloads. I even have a few boxes of WW2 era British production surplus ammo. I guess there were still a few floating around during WW2 with rear troops and guards and maybe even a few old officers that refused to give them up. I fitted a spare 1917 cylinder to it but I've never had a reason to shoot .45 ACP through it since I have several other revolvers in that chambering.

 

[dsf]

Thank you very much to all. The link shows it a few hundred away from revolvers shipped to Shapleih Hardware. Very interesting to know where the gun originally went to and when.

Reloading seems straightforward and I'm glad 45 Colt bullets can be used, I have a boatload of those. Brass seems to be a bit of a challenge, but having scored a bunch of 41AE the 455 should be a breeze. Loaded ammo doesn't seem so hard to find.

 

[dsf]

Congrats, that's a beauty and pretty good deal.

You have a British Svc revolver 455 Hand Ejector - 2nd Model. It's undoubtedly from a group shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Dec 1917 and never left the states., hence no English import/proof/export stamps.

It appears to be all original and not converted from its original cartridge, 455 Mark II service cartridge; interchangeable with the 455 Eley.

Thank you, I appreciate the detailed information. Learning about the gun is 2nd only to shooting them. Cleaning a 100 year old gun is 3rd. Not too distant a 3rd, but still .....

As an aside, the gun wasn't listed under Smith but under "Other Colt" semi-pistol or some such category that didn't apply and probably got little attention. I did one bid just to keep track. I think this is the 3rd or 4th time I've bought a gun after just "keeping track".

 

[mh51]

I have # 534xx, which shows to be part of a Canadian Government Contract. It was shipped April 14, 1916 and was delivered to the Canadian Government, Ottawa, Canada. It has no Canadian or import markings...nothing other than factory markings.

 

[Hondo44]

Cool, is the barrel marked 455?

 

[mh51]

Barrel is marked "Smith & Wesson .455."
Mike

 

[glowe]

That appears to be a totally unmolested N frame you found. Two things of interest here. First, the seller states "This Post WW I revolver is in great shape for nearly 100 years of age." Well, all those British revolvers were manufactured from 1915 -1917, so all were sent to support British troops during the Great War. One of my 455s around 60,000 was shipped in May 1916, so yours would have most likely been 1916 or 1917. Second, The seller is from Olathe, Kansas which is right up the street from Jim Supica's Old Town Station where Jim sold a ton of S&Ws, located in Lenexa, up until he accepted his current Director role with the NRA Museum.

Jim sold a bunch of 455s about 15 years ago, one of his catalogs listed around 50 at once. Prices for 98% revolvers were about the price you paid for your gun. 95+% guns were selling for $400 -$500. I wonder if that gun once went through OTS in Kansas? I bought a cheap one from Jim back then and paid $365, which I thought was a great deal even back then. Let me add that Jim's was always very conservative with grading guns. He listed mine at 90%. You did well!

 

[Jack Flash]

... I even have a few boxes of WW2 era British production surplus ammo. I guess there were still a few floating around during WW2 with rear troops and guards and maybe even a few old officers that refused to give them up. ...

The English certainly pressed .455 revolvers into service in WWII, especially after Dunkirk. I have read that the shortage of firearms was so acute, they had to arm guards at airfields with ancient pikes and swords.

The Brits were so desperate for working firearms that they urgently appealed to American citizens to sent anything that would shoot over to England. The following ad appeared in the November, 1940 issue of The American Rifleman:

 

[Absalom]

....
You have a British Svc revolver 455 Hand Ejector - 2nd Model. It's undoubtedly from a group shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Dec 1917 and never left the states., hence no English import/proof/export stamps.

....

Jack:
I just love that American Rifleman ad.

However, note the quote from Jim above. Given its condition and the absence of any British markings, It would be highly unlikely that this gun went to Britain for WW I anyways.

And of course the ad applies to WW II. These stories about collecting civilian arms in America and shipping them to Britain keep coming up. Is anyone aware of any serious research into whether and to what extent this actually occurred? The logistics would seem challenging, especially if it was a civilian committee and not the government organizing this.

 

[Jack Flash]

Jack:
I just love that American Rifleman ad.

However, note the quote from Jim above. Given its condition and the absence of any British markings, It would be highly unlikely that this gun went to Britain for WW I anyways.

And of course the ad applies to WW II. These stories about collecting civilian arms in America and shipping them to Britain keep coming up. Is anyone aware of any serious research into whether and to what extent this actually occurred? The logistics would seem challenging, especially if it was a civilian committee and not the government organizing this.

I love that ad too. May I just say that if you look at the part of the post I quoted, it had to do with WWII manufactured Mk II ammunition not the revolver in the OP. I was just saying that the WWI revolvers, whether in (British) military storage or somebody's sock drawer, were brought back into service and thus the demand for fresh .455 ammunition. I doubt that very many .455s were shipped back to England from the US circa 1940.

People have written about the firearm gifting program referenced in the ad. While I don't have any statistics, I have read anecdotal evidence of "barrels set up in the corners of American hardware and sporting goods stores for donating guns".

There was an article in The American Rifleman a few years back, written by an Englishman, regarding a Winchester lever action rifle in his possession. The rifle had arrived in England in '40 or '41 as part of the Defense of British Homes effort. He cherished the old Winchester and lamented that he was going to have to get the receiver welded due to new English gun laws. I think he may have even offered to ship it back to the NRA in the US to keep it from being essentially destroyed.

You could go to the NRA's website and search for that article. Or maybe better, send them a letter / e-mail asking about the 1940 Defense of British Homes ad and that old Winchester.

 

[dsf]

I'm hopeful what appears to be "orange" on the right side of the barrel isn't rust - hard to tell from the photo. The suggestion has been made the chambers were extended to accommodate 45 Colt, however there appear to be cuts in the chamber where one would expect the 455 MkII case mouth to be.

Segueing a bit, to reloading. I have a few 45 ACP and AR die sets along with 45 Colt. Can these be made us of for reloading the 455? Lee dies look like the most readily available in 455 and are cheap, but any reason a 45 Colt carbide sizer wouldn't work? 45 ACP for case mouth belling and 45 AR for seating and a good crimp?

 

[glowe]

Those images indicate your revolver was not altered unless the recoil shield has been modified/shaved. The cylinder looks original and not ground shorter, since the serial numbers are present.

 

[Muley Gil]

I'm hopeful what appears to be "orange" on the right side of the barrel isn't rust - hard to tell from the photo. The suggestion has been made the chambers were extended to accommodate 45 Colt, however there appear to be cuts in the chamber where one would expect the 455 MkII case mouth to be.

Segueing a bit, to reloading. I have a few 45 ACP and AR die sets along with 45 Colt. Can these be made us of for reloading the 455? Lee dies look like the most readily available in 455 and are cheap, but any reason a 45 Colt carbide sizer wouldn't work? 45 ACP for case mouth belling and 45 AR for seating and a good crimp?

I have used .45 Colt dies to size .45 ACP cases and I have also used .45 ACP sizing dies on .45 Colt cases. I had a Webley & Scott MK IV revolver that was still in .455 and I used a combination of my .45 Colt and .45 ACP dies to reload .455.

 

[Jack Flash]

I'm thinking you may have to at least buy the .455 shell holder(?)

I bit the bullet and bought the dies & shell holder from Lee.