S&W Lock Failure?

[rug357]

I have read about the S&W revolver lock failures but I have never seen it happen personally and I don't have any S&W revolver with a lock.

This morning I got a call from a friend who said the lock on his model 60 may have failed. He said he was shooting the revolver at the local range when the on the 5th round he could not pull the trigger. He said the action was "locked" or "jammed" up and he could not pull the trigger. This occured after firing about 30 rounds. He didn't have the key to unlock the revolver and the range didn't have one either so he had to secure the revolver (there was one live round left) and take it home. At home he said he tried to "unlock" the action but he said the key would not turn. It's as if the whole lock and action is jammed. He's going to take the revolver to a local gunsmith to see if it can be "unlocked" next week.

Anybody here ever seen this type of lock failure? Is this what commonly happens when the revolver lock malfunctions?

Anybody else seen a lock failure on a S&W revolver?

 

[flat top]

rug357; It happens...I made a replacement assembly to remove mine, and you can get in touch with forum member Bullseye Smith, for a solution to the problem....its called "The Plug".

 

[zzclancy]

Massad Ayoob makes excellent arguments against disabling/altering any safety devices. If you use the weapon in self defense, you can count on a prosecutor calling you on it.

 

[Bullseye Smith]

ZZ you can look at it the other way, means you are still alive to make it to court . The lock was made for storage, long and short of it. I bet he didn't have a lock failer.

 

[ajpelz]

The answer to solving all of the above...... DON'T OWN a gun with an IL. Problem??? What problem??

 

[Black_Sheep]

My Model 60 did the same thing as your friend's Model 60, I'm 99% sure it was the IL. I say that because the flag was partially up and unlocking it with the key "solved" the problem. To get it unlocked I had to thumb the hammer back slightly to take pressure off the flag while manipulating the key. The gun was purchased as a concealed carry weapon, but suddenly it was no longer trustworthy. The '60 and my 642 received a "lockectomy" and both have performed perfectly ever since. The only S&W revolvers I will consider buying any more are pre-lock models.

 

[handgunner356]

I question why the cylinder wouldn't open to allow him to remove the live round. The lock is connected to the hammer, unless a piece broke off and jammed the bolt.

 

[ajpelz]

Yea, I am not sure of the whole way that the lock works, but the fact that it would not operate under the lock-up raises a huge red-flag for me. Write it down, I will never own a gun with and IL. Just old fashioned I guess, my pops taught me the old school way. The only safety a revolver needs is between the shooter's ears.

 

[Bullseye Smith]

When it is remove there is nothing to go wrong.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Massad Ayoob makes excellent arguments against disabling/altering any safety devices. If you use the weapon in self defense, you can count on a prosecutor calling you on it.

+1 Unless you have lots of money to try and convince 12 members of a jury.

“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was so reckless that he DEACTIVATED A SAFETY DEVICE ON A LETHAL WEAPON, and so arrogant that he thought he knew more about the gun than the factory that made it!” That’s a mountain I’d rather not have to climb in court, nor debate in front of twelve jurors selected in part by opposing counsel for their lack of knowledge of firearms.

Massad Ayoob Blog Archive INTERNAL GUN LOCKS

 

[Alx]

By that logic, even if you have left the lock intact in the gun, and you actually have to shoot someone to defend yourself, the prosecutor will have an argument that you made the gun unsafe by unlocking it.
And the very act of unlocking the deadly weapon shows a reckless disregard for sefety etc.
On the other hand, if your revolver doesn't have a storage lock, and you shoot someone, the prosecutor can say you were reckless in buying a gun that did not have an internal storage lock.
All sorts of ways to play this dumb game.
Anyone caught carrying an unlocked gun will be liable for reckless disregard etc. ?
The State might be liable for any deaths from officers using guns without locks.

Any defense lawyer could show the jury that the gun was useless if the storage lock was kept locked and unlocking a gun would render it the same as a gun with a removed or disabled lock.

 

[Alx]

Consider the lucky prosecutor that is fortunate enough to have as his defendant a perp that used that popular Taurus revolver called THE JUDGE.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Alx, I agree with your statement, but remember one thing.
Your dealing with 12 people who couldn't get off jury duty. Some of these people may not be too sharp, if you get my drift. On top of this, they could be in fact prejudiced against gun owners, the color of your skin etc.

The prosecutor is trying to paint you into a corner. So, why play with the idea of a modified gun in a defense trial?

 

[45Wheelgun]

Move along...nothing to see here....there are no lock failures, only internet lore...Move along....nothing to see here....

 

[epj]

May very well be a case of lock failure. OTOH, it could also be caused by powder residue under the ejector star, or the ejector rod backing out. I have had both failures on non-IL guns and had the same problem.

 

[Alx]

There are several documented cases of lock failure, specific lock failure, in this forum. The flag bounces from extreme recoil, and overcomes the spring that opposes it.

Especially prone are the alloy-framed lightweights in .357 .
If you have seen the tiny piece of wire spring that is designed to keep the flag from bouncing on recoil, you would be amazed that it doesn't evaporate from rust if a damp breeze were to blow past.

I removed the IL parts, all four of them, non-destructively from my 649.

They were a menace to my own safety.

 

[Black_Sheep]

I question why the cylinder wouldn't open to allow him to remove the live round. The lock is connected to the hammer, unless a piece broke off and jammed the bolt.

Unless the hammer is in the "at rest" position, the cylinder release won't move...

 

[Smith357]

Anybody here ever seen this type of lock failure? Is this what commonly happens when the revolver lock malfunctions?

Anybody else seen a lock failure on a S&W revolver?

I personally saw this type of failure before. although the hammer was in full cock over a loaded cylinder when the jam I saw occurred. It seems that the little flag broke off of the lock and jammed up the lockwork. I do not believe the lock failures are common (any machine can break) but they do happen once in a blue moon. enough for me never to own a gun with a lock

 

[davel686]

Move along...nothing to see here....there are no lock failures, only internet lore...Move along....nothing to see here....

Yes there have been lock failures and i have already documented mine several times.
If I were ever to buy another IL gun, as long as it shows no signs of binding then I would leave the lock.
as for removing the flag to insure it doesn't fail or in my case to return the gun to a functioning state, If I have to use it in self defense, the last thing I am going to worry about is if a lawyer is going to exploit the IL.
If people are so worried about little things like that, then maybe they shouldn't be carrying a gun and instead carry there cell phones and call the cops.
this whole argument is getting really old.

 

[Alx]

Here is what the IL consists of, besides the hammer features that interact.

I was not able to remove the spring from the flag itself, without a microscopic tool to unsnap one of its legs from a detent, but to show it better, I slipped a small scrap of paper between its free end and the flag. You can see the coiled part around the tiny post. This spring is not much thicker than the hair line on the rule.
That is the inch scale, showing 1/16 ths of an inch, on the ruler under the parts. The other all-coil spring is itself pretty small, but looks huge in the photo compared to the flag spring.

These hard and brittle little bits are easily able to chew up an alloy frame they inhabit, screw up the action and jam the hammer when they break, get out of place, or worn.

Once they are all removed, you have a tiny pivot hole in the frame near the cyl. release, and a small hole left by the lock tumbler, marked "L" on the frame. "L" for Lubricate. If these little holes worry you, pocket lint or whatever, you also need to plug up the rest of the gun's holes and cracks.
There are 5 or 6 charge holes in the cylinder front face, a relatively huge gap above and below the cylinder, and behind it, a holes and slots in front and behind the trigger, and a large hole in the muzzle, where your pocket junk would cause you more trouble than the two little IL holes in the side of the frame. Do you really let your carry gun get that messy ?