S&W model 2, Army

[hg20512]

Hello
I am new in this forum and from Europe, Austria. Please forgive my bad english. I collect also S&W guns. I have two SW model 2 Army. Last year I got one with a centerfire ignition. It looks like very professional. By talking with other collectors one told me SW produced a small couple of mod. 2 for Germany, because their was some people they are selfreloading centerfire ammunition. Does anybody know something about this case.
Reloading and shooting works good with .320 cartridges and blackpowder.

 

[CQB27]

Welcome from Lavender Mountain in the great state of Georgia! Some one will be along shortly to tell you all about your revolver. Lots of great knowledge here!

 

[merl67]

Welcome to the forum ! That is a interesting one the centerfire conversion was expertly done.

 

[BMur]

Introduction of Centerfire

Welcome to the Forum,
The Number 2 Army was produced from 1861 to 1874 in the 32 Rimfire long.

I have seen several alterations of antique firearms in about the 1875 timeframe when in Europe they began a significant changeover to the centerfire cartridge. First seen I believe in the Webley Pug type Bulldogs of the early 1870's. Most of those were larger calibers. Like the .442 cf.

The U.S. was slow about changing over to centerfire in the smaller pistol rounds. Examples of the Colt Newline in 1875, the Colt Cloverleaf converted to .41 centerfire, and the 3rd model derringer also converted to .41 centerfire are seen in that same timeframe. Often having British or Birmingham proof marks on the cylinders, barrels, and frames. I also have a very rare and late serial number Hopkins & Allen XL 6 that was manufactured in 41 centerfire. Exactly the same timeframe. about late 1875/76.

The real problem at that time was cartridges were not readily available in the U.S. or in Europe for the centerfire in the smaller calibers until after 1875.

Plus, the difference in chambers for the 32 rimfire and 32 centerfire was a significant problem prior to 1891. They were not the same in 1875. Bullet diameters also varied greatly. So, modification of the chambers was often required. Unless the alteration was performed much later. Even when Smith & Wesson introduced their .32 centerfire in 1878? That round will NOT chamber in the number 2 Army.

So, a dual purpose rimfire/centerfire hammer would not be likely when this gun was being manufactured up to 1874. Not even in Europe. So, this is likely to be a later alteration in my opinion. Again, I have seen this type of alteration using dual ignition but it has always been proven to be a modification and during the Rimfire to Centerfire changeover. I don't think the factory would manufacture a dual ignition hammer.

Can we see a good photo of the hammer?
Also, What is the serial number range?

***The alteration becomes obvious when looking at the hammer. Usually it is drilled out and the centefire pin is inserted then pinned to the hammer. If much later? it's welded on. A factory hammer would be ONE solid piece. Colt would pin the firing pin to the hammer but that was for large caliber. Most hammers are one solid piece.

My Rare Hopkins and Allen .41 centerfire is one solid centerfire hammer. There is no reason to pin a firing pin on a small caliber pistol. Only if it has been modified to include a centerfire pin.

Also, thanks for posting.


Murph

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Willkommen im Forum vom Wiregrass!

 

[mmaher94087]

Murph, the firing pin is frame mounted on this example and the rim fire hammer nose is evident in the photo. Neat conversion.

 

[BMur]

Frame mounted pin.

Thanks Mike,
I couldn't tell from the photo's. If it is a floating pin then its definitely a much later alteration.

Murph

 

[opoefc]

The aftermarket alteration of Model 2s to centerfire are occasionaly found, with the work being done at various levels of skills. The poster's gun is expertly done, one of the best ones I've seen. No factory alterations to centerfire are known to collectors. Ed

 

[hg20512]

[FONT=&quot]Hello again. Yes there is a floating pin for centerfire. It was hit by the part of the hammer under the hammertip. The productionnumber is 70384. .32 Cases didn`t fit they are too wide. I load .320 cases with 9 grain blackpowder and heeltip leadbullets. Today Fiocchi produce this ammunition in short and long and in corto (BP) and lungo with smokeless powder. In the 1860th gunmakers in England produced centerfireguns and so it is possible that collectors in germany used those guns. I own a english revolver from this time in centerfire like an Adams.[/FONT]

 

[BMur]

Centerfire pistols

hg20512

Research in the U.S. reveals early centerfires for the smaller caliber revolvers (.41,.38, & .32) did not take place until 1875. The larger calibers around 1870 using inside primers.

My research proves that many of the early
"Small Caliber" centerfires were actually shipped to Europe in Rimfire configuration and converted there on contract to Centerfire in or around 1874/1875 due to the popularity of the centerfire "becoming" what it was in Europe at that time.

Still, even in Europe, most of the centerfire pistols were large caliber at that early period, like the .442 introduced in late 1868.

I have found no evidence that the .320 was being manufactured prior to late 1873 in Europe and that was the very beginning of this caliber. Many, many of the revolvers were later converted to Centerfire. Often it was so well done that you can't tell! They were performed on contract with Webley and Tranter. Likely other gun makers as well. They would actually replace the hammers with centerfire hammers and re-mill the recoil shields to centerfire. Like yours.

I have also seen where the rimfire slot is machined closed and filled extremely well. So, there is NO WAY to determine when the gun was actually converted. Just like yours. We do know that the floating pin was NOT introduced until the late 1880's in the U.S. So that would be my earliest guess.

If you have evidence that the .320 centerfire pistol cartridge was available earlier than 1873 can you please present it? An earlier manufactured Rimfire firearm now chambered in Centerfire could easily have been converted later. I have a lot of researched evidence that this was being done a lot in Europe in the mid 1870's. So even if your Adams pre-dates 1870? It was likely part of this Contract conversion. Often done so well that you can't tell unless you look very closely.

If you follow the Bulldogs, which were "extremely" popular, they didn't advertise the .320/ .32 centerfire until late 1875. Then again, changed to the Smith & Wesson .32 centerfire in 1878. So a lot was going on during that timeframe to adjust to the Market. Now favoring the Centerfire cartridge.


Murph

 

[glowe]

Interesting gun. There are several of these revolvers in the S&W Model 2 Project that were also converted to centerfire. Serial numbers 10,452, 10,455, 10,782, 25,290, 47298, 47,308, 53253, and 53,565. It is interesting that 3 pairs of guns are pretty close in serial number range - makes you wonder if they were originally sold as a set from the factory and then later converted by the owners? Unfortunately no details as to how they were converted.

 

[BMur]

Early 32 cal Centerfire cartridge listing

Here is an example of a very early centerfire cartridge listing from very early 1876 in the James Bown & Sons catalog.
** Notice no listing yet for the .38 S&W cartridge. Baby Russian.

The listing specifically relates the .32 Long and Short centerfire to the Webley and Tranter Double action pistols. (Bulldogs)

This listing also pre-dates the Colt lightning revolver so the .38 Short and Long centerfire would be for the Newline pocket pistols and rifles.

Also, The rare .41 Long centerfire is actually the first successful variation of centerfire introduced for the centerfire Colt 41 Newline.

*** Also notice the "New and improved" centerfire primer. They are talking about the Boxer primer. The U.S. was using the Berdan primer for the most part early on. The Boxer primer was much easier to reload.


Murph

 

[hg20512]

Hi Murph

Her is the english revolver. It`s an adams patent

Written on
Barrel: Deane Adams & Beane, Nr. 30 King Williams Street, Londonbridge,
Frame: Adams Patent Nr, 133041

For reloading put drum out. .32 cases will fit, barreldiameter from .313 to .321. Think will take 8mm Rast und Gasser casting mold and do the rest with the calibration die. Normal .32 75 grain bullet (Lee) drop trough the barrel ( too small ).

Found nothing later as 1870 on this adress. Think I read in a english directory with english gunmakers the company change the adress later. Found mostly lookalike percussion guns on google. Think it was transistion model or well reworked later.

Mostly similar centerfiregun: Revolver, centrefire (John Adams Cartridge Service Revolver, Model of 1867, MKII), Great Britain.(OF). Revolver, 0.45 calibre, Adams, No.9584. (SB). - MAAS Collection
This gun you can load with drum inside and it is from 1870 and had a more modern appearance

But I am not so smart on english websites.

Have a nice day.

 

[BMur]

Conversion

hg20512,

Absolutely wonderful example of the early full frame Adams patent revolver. I actually have one of these in my collection in 45 caliber percussion. Often referred to as a Colt's competitor in the U.S. However, I personally think that Colt's were a poor comparison to these extremely high quality solid frame double action revolvers of the 1850's and into the cartridge era.

Often elaborately engraved and the action on these is absolutely a pleasure to operate. Very exceptional piece and thank you for presenting it.

This is also an excellent example of the quality of conversions taking place during that time in Europe. Often these are found still having a loading lever and now in cartridge configuration. The same can be said of early percussion American made guns converted to cartridge much later. Seeing a transition of the factory conversion process taking place from early to late production.

However, the quality of the conversions in Europe is exquisite and often look factory original but many were actually performed much later during the mid 1870's and even later on contract with Major Distributors who were stuck with percussion guns that were now obsolete and in mint condition. So they would send them back to the manufacturer for conversion and then re-sold as a cartridge gun. By then the conversion process in Europe was so good that they came out looking like yours does. Absolutely perfect.

The large calibers in Europe are already proven to have been introduced in the late 1860's in both .450 Adams centerfire and .442 centerfire. Also, possibly the .44 Webley centerfire. These calibers were Military, government contract early calibers.

The .320 was more of a Civilian hideout, carry caliber that became very popular in the later 1870's but I have found no evidence that this smaller centerfire caliber was part of the origins of the centerfire in Europe. The only reference I can find is with the "early" Bulldogs and the earliest being late 1873.

What you would need in my opinion is a documented reference that dates to pre-1873 in order to confirm the centerfire prior to that date. Such as an advertisement, official record, like court record, or some form of written evidence. The guns themselves can easily be attributed to a later conversion.

Still, Adams actually patented a "conversion" process which in and of itself proves that they were converting their own guns to cartridge years later.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Patent reference

hg20512,

You could also look up that late patent? 133041...See when the patent was approved?. I can't find it in my references. Are you sure that last number is a 1?

The below patent dates to 1856 and it is in the 13,000 range. The Adams patent does show up on my U.S. patent search of 1856. So the late patent on your gun likely refers to the centerfire patent of 1872-3 but that's only a guess without the reference. It could also refer to the conversion patent but it definitely is a post 1870 patent reference so it is not included in the early 1868 large caliber centerfires. Nor would it date to pre-1870. Based on patent number reference it should date to the 1872 timeframe and that would be the earliest date!


Murph

 

[hg20512]

Hi Murph


You are right. I unscrew the gunpart (securespring for drumaxe) by the number and that wasn`t number 1 rather letter R was hided. So the right number is 13,304R.



Georg

 

[BMur]

Patent reference

Georg,
Great. That actually makes more sense. That patent dates to February 1856. So, that does prove that this gun was originally a percussion pistol and later was converted to centerfire cartridge. Again, this gun is also an outstanding example of just how well the conversion process was in Europe. Subtle hints are the soft ADAMS stamp and slight loss of engraving next to the Adams Patent stamp but no finish loss. So, the gun was returned at some point to be altered to Centerfire and refinished, replaced the cylinder, either re-worked the hammer or replaced the hammer, and notice the recoil shield? Excellent workmanship with the centerfire milling.
What might also help you to date the conversion? Would be the Proof marks on the cylinder? Those definitely changed with later proof (test fire) inspections. Whether London or Birmingham, Pre-1876 or post, etc. all based on type of proof and view stamp. Still, that won't tell you where exactly it was converted. You would have to conduct an in depth study of these to see the different examples since so many were converted and obviously at different locations.


Murph

 

[hg20512]

Hi Murph
The only stamps on the cylinder are the letter V with a crown above.


Georg

 

[BMur]

Proof and View Marks

Georg,
Proof and View Marks are a study in and of themselves. We know from documented markings what they should look like and their locations stamped on revolvers etc. but to actually date them? You have to study the stamps closely.

As an example. I performed research of the 1870's in Europe and in the U.S. Regarding the early centerfire smaller caliber pistols and found a lot of solid evidence that Europe was mass converting old rimfires and percussion revolvers at that time to centerfire.

In fact your Adams was more than likely converted during this period. Likely in the mid 1870's. So, using proof marks as an example you have to cross-reference known dates and markings. A great reference is the early Bulldogs like the "PUG"....Those Webley's are serial numbered and we can basically date them by serial number. So, looking specifically at the Proof and View marks on the cylinder and comparing them to your Adams? You can determine if the gun was converted during that time frame. The stamps must be identical in every way.

Since the size, style and basically the dies changed as time went on. Those pistols proof marked in the 1880's and later have much different die stamps than those proofed in the 1870's because the dies wore out and were replaced.

I can see from your photo's that the barrel Proof and View Marks are very early style from the PRE-1870s and are Percussion style stamps. However, the cylinder stamps are very small and appear as those stamped in the mid to late 1870's but I'd need to see them up close.

Take a look at "PUG" bulldogs and look closely at the proof marks( Photos) . Some were proofed with Birmingham proofs normally "early" so they would be different but others are proofed with London and they might be identical to yours.

Remember, by Identical I mean "IDENTICAL" not just the same style stamp. Identical in size, die, and location.

Looking at the photo's. The earlier Pugs had the early external cylinder locking ratchet and Birmingham proofs that date to the mid 1870's and are early cartridge bulldogs.

Later Webley's (last photo) have the Small View marks like yours beginning in about the 1878 and later timeframe. So, serial number cross referencing helps to date the proof marks which in turn helps to date the time of conversion in your case.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Correct Proofs

Georg,
Here is a better example. Notice the Proof and View Marks on this 70,000 serial number range Number 2 Army?

They are identical on both the barrel and cylinder in both size, die, and style. Strong proof that both the barrel and cylinder was proofed at the same time using the same die stamp. Also, that it was proof stamped very early in the 1870's based on records of very early London cartridge proof stamps and late percussion stamps on 51 Colt Navy revolvers that date to the late 1860's and early 1870's.

Now, look at your Adams. The proof marks are totally different in both size, die stamp, and style between the barrel stamps and the cylinder. This just proves the cylinder was proofed much later. Also, based on proof stamp studies of later cartridge revolvers post 1875. Very close to the model of 1878 Adams cartridge revolver in size and location.


Murph