S&W Model 3 US American - Fake!

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Last month, I purchased a S&W Model 3 US American from
a prominent auction house and after careful examination, I have
determined that it is a forgery. I don’t believe the auction house
knowingly sold a counterfeit but if they had taken some pictures
from the straight-on side position, a major indicator would have
been readily visible.

The the piece of information that initially convinced me to bid
was that the serial number of this revolver (SN 1149). It is listed
in Charles Pate’s book on the S&W #3 American in the survivor’s
list and the notes match the description exactly (it has the
“stretched” barrel).

The first anomaly that struck me was the large barrel-to-cylinder
gap. Now when one studies the Model 3 evolution, the cylinder
was shortened just before the First Russian Contract (actually, the
cylinder + gas ring remained the same overall length; to reduce
fouling, the cylinder face was cut back about 1/32” to allow the
gas ring to protrude farther in an attempt to reduce the affects
from fouling). The first type cylinder was 1.45” front-to-back and
then it was shortened to 1.42”. Therefore, the cylinder is from a
later production Model 3.

The fitting code on the cylinder is K6 and this fitting code is on the
frame too. So, the frame and cylinder were part of the same gun.
The fitting code on the barrel is T3 and the latch has code is 9. From
this it is apparent the gun was assembled from several different re-
volvers.

Now, let’s look at the frame. The frame is stamped with the serial
number 1149 and this number is repeated on the inside of the right-
hand grip panel. The font of the numbers doesn’t quite match other
examples in my collection (although the font is the same on the butt
and the grip). It is apparent the right grip panel had a piece of it cut
out and a matching piece of walnut spliced in the location where the
grip serial number is usually stamped and the current serial number
is stamped below this area across the stock instead of in-line with it.
Ergo, the grips were re-stamped. And because this re-stamp on the
grip panel is a match for the stamp on the butt, the serial number on
the butt is a re-stamp too.

Now we come to the inspector stamp/marks from the Army
inspection process. The barrel, cylinder and frame have the
anticipated A’s and P’s and the top rib of the barrel has the
correct “US” stamp.

Closer inspection reveals the “A” on the barrel, cylinder and
frame were not made by the same stamp. The “A” on the barrel
looks correct but the “A” stamp on the frame is larger and the
“A” on the cylinder was made by a stamp that is different from the
other two. The “P” proof mark on the barrel again looks correct.
The “P” on the frame is a very close copy and looks right but it can’t
be. The “P” on the cylinder again appears to be larger than the other
two but the font style is a very good match but again it can’t be real.

Taking all this information together, it is clear to me that the barrel is
most likely from one of the original 1,000 US purchased Number 3
Americans but the rest has been doctored to match. Why the serial
number 1149 was chosen, I don’t know but the barrel has the “oil hole”
under the extractor rod housing and thus, they chose a serial number
under 1500 that was also on the list of revolvers purchased by the US
Army.


Cheers!
Webb

P.S. Here are the pics from the auction.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Here are some more pics showing some of the details mentioned
above.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Just a couple more.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[iby]

Good work Sherlock.
I guess if it had just been a mixmaster that would be one thing .
And should have been mentioned in the description.
So it may or may not be the same gun as in Col Pate's book.
I have an aversion to early US guns for this reason.
It is still an American

 

[shown50]

Wow that took some effort to fake. I would've been burned without ever knowing.

 

[gwpercle]

This is the reason I don't even try to dabble in antique S&W's ... I would get taken to the cleaner's and not even be aware of it !
Awesome detective work ... Thanks for posting ...
I know a whole lot more about S&W Model 3's now .

Sorry about your Model 3 not being what it's supposed to be .
All we can do is learn and Keep On Keepin On !
Gary

 

[BMur]

Using the terms FAKE OR FORGERY one has to be very careful. Defamation is a legal nightmare. Suspect altered is a more appropriate term. Or likely restamped.
Back in the early 1990’s the terms “restamped” or “renumbered” was often used in auction descriptions. The guns still sold for a lot of money.
This example definitely has some history as being identified as an authentic US issue 44 American. That serial number on the butt looks factory correct to me and the barrel is definitely correct.
I personally never put myself in a position of “absolute” or you might see a legal battle in your future. Especially if your public opinion can be proven to have defamed (damaged) the reputation of a reputable Auction House. ( Still in business)
Book writing requires you to study defamation very closely. I had several lawyers buy my book fishing for a lawsuit.
You have to be very careful. Just trying to help Webb. Walk softly. It’s not worth it.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I appreciate the words of warning but I have the evidence to prove
my assertion. I don't think one can hide behind semantics in this
case. I did say that I didn't hold the auction house responsible.

This isn't a simple case of "refreshing" the marks. This is a case of
creating a more valuable model by the assembly of parts not original
to this model and then deliberately mis-marking the gun to support
the false claim. That is fraud in my book.

Now who did this is unknown and at this point, it is unlikely the per-
petrator could be identified. Therefore I am not casting aspersions
at anyone in particular and therefore I don't see how I can be held
liable. And as long as I can support my assertions, I think I am Okay.

I guess I am dealing with the disappointment and I don't want this
revolver to continue to be accepted as a genuine article. I'm just not
that kind of guy.

There is an old adage in the gun collecting fraternity about "putting
on your 'big boy' pants" when dealing with disappointment in gun
transactions that don't turn out as expected. I have earned my adult
pantaloons.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[iby]

Webb
A savvy collector of this model would not accept it as genuine if they had a couple of minutes to inspect it so don't worry about that.
The auction house that sold it has been very good about answering any questions I have asked them before bidding.
I bet all of us have bought a gun without doing due diligence.

 

[wlw-19958]

Webb
A savvy collector of this model would not accept it as genuine if they had a couple of minutes to inspect it so don't worry about that.
The auction house that sold it has been very good about answering any questions I have asked them before bidding.
I bet all of us have bought a gun without doing due diligence.

Hi There,

Everything you said is true. A careful, personal inspection is the best way
but it isn't always possible (or at lease, not without going to great expense).
Therefore, I have to make the best judgements based on the information
available. Of course, I can ask questions and request additional photos and
I did ask about the inspection stamps/marks. but this one being on the sur-
vivors list and the descriptions on the list tallied with the item (as far as the
description went). So I thought I was on relatively safe ground. Plus, I didn't
bid very much considering what it was suppose to be. Lesson Learned.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[eb07]

Prominent online auction house who is in itself it's own entity would reimburse you for not researching before they advertised something for fear of losing their reputation for sale or online auction\flea market website where anyone can advertise and you have no recourse ?

Those are two different things. Was just wondering for clarification.

Sorry this happened to you either way.

 

[iby]

Webb
Thanks for posting this.
Americans are my favorite gun/discussions and there are few.
Mike

 

[gunbarrel]

<<Using the terms FAKE OR FORGERY one has to be very careful. Defamation is a legal nightmare. Suspect altered is a more appropriate term. Or likely restamped.
Back in the early 1990’s the terms “restamped” or “renumbered” was often used in auction descriptions. The guns still sold for a lot of money.
This example definitely has some history as being identified as an authentic US issue 44 American. That serial number on the butt looks factory correct to me and the barrel is definitely correct.
I personally never put myself in a position of “absolute” or you might see a legal battle in your future. Especially if your public opinion can be proven to have defamed (damaged) the reputation of a reputable Auction House. ( Still in business)
Book writing requires you to study defamation very closely. I had several lawyers buy my book fishing for a lawsuit.
You have to be very careful. Just trying to help Webb. Walk softly. It’s not worth it.

Murph>>

Murph is right. A new subject law goes into effect in Florida on July 1. See below.

CS/SB 752: Defamation, False Light, and Unauthorized Publication of Name or Likenesses​

GENERAL BILL by Judiciary ; Senator Simon - The Florida Senate


Defamation, False Light, and Unauthorized Publication of Name or Likenesses; Requiring that certain articles or broadcasts be removed from any website over which the newspaper, broadcaster, or periodical has control within a specified period to limit damages for defamation; providing persons in certain positions relating to newspapers with immunity for defamation if such persons exercise due care to prevent publication or utterance of such a statement; declaring that the continued appearance on any website over which the newspaper, broadcaster, or periodical has control of a published statement determined to be false is deemed to be a new publication of the false statement for certain purposes and that the owner, licensee, or operator is not entitled to a certain privilege, etc.

Effective Date: 7/1/2025

Last Action: 3/26/2025 Senate - Now in Rules

 

[444 Magnum]

Send it back. I've sent back three firearms to three different auction houses over the years-two rifles and one pistol. The rifles were restored and the SAA had an altered barrel. I had to prove my case; but, when I had, all three auction houses gave me a full refund including shipping both ways.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

I think you may be right but it would be a tough road to plow. To bid,
one must acknowledge The Bidder's Agreement and must acquiesce to
the terms of the auction house. They pretty much indemnify themselves
against all things except listing an item under a false heading (and some-
times, not even for that). Terms are "as-is, where-is" when the gavel strikes.

And, unless they knowingly listed an item falsely or incorrectly, they can
fall back on their "good faith" and that they had "no knowledge" of the
deception. Taking someone to Court over a civil matter can be very ex-
pensive. The average cost of this type of litigation is in the 25 to 35
thousand range (unless your case has the potential for high settlement
and the lawyer will take the case on contingency). Going to Court is
always a crap shoot.

As to being attacked for saying what I said, sure, it could happen. I've
never mentioned the name of the auction house. As long as the facts
support my assertion, I don't think I have much to worry about from
that side.

As you can tell I'm not a lawyer. The Law is a mire and will suck one
down if one doesn't have the where-with-all (or a lawyer).

Cheers!
Webb

 

[Nagloc68]

@wlw-19958 first of all, thank you for sharing your experience so we all may learn. It is difficult to admit when this happens.

I have been disappointed on several occasions with my online purchases, but I can recall only one occasion was a fake/forgery. While online photos and descriptions were encouraging, in person inspection revealed a clear fake. I was embarrassed and mad. Fortunately for me, the auction house was understanding and while I lost shipping costs, I got the purchase refunded. I was very relieved.

As we shop globally these days and rely more on photos and less on personal inspections, these disappointments are likely to continue.

Helping others to learn is a valuable part of these communities.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Thanks for the advice and the kind words. I could have just buried it in the
back of the safe and saved some face by not saying anything but I would
like to correct the "survivors list" to prevent anyone from making the mis-
take I did. I will close with a quote:

"The only man who never makes a mistake is the man
who never does anything." (Theodore Roosevelt 1900)

Cheers!
Webb

 

[Oldsalt66]

<<Using the terms FAKE OR FORGERY one has to be very careful. Defamation is a legal nightmare. Suspect altered is a more appropriate term. Or likely restamped.
Back in the early 1990’s the terms “restamped” or “renumbered” was often used in auction descriptions. The guns still sold for a lot of money.
This example definitely has some history as being identified as an authentic US issue 44 American. That serial number on the butt looks factory correct to me and the barrel is definitely correct.
I personally never put myself in a position of “absolute” or you might see a legal battle in your future. Especially if your public opinion can be proven to have defamed (damaged) the reputation of a reputable Auction House. ( Still in business)
Book writing requires you to study defamation very closely. I had several lawyers buy my book fishing for a lawsuit.
You have to be very careful. Just trying to help Webb. Walk softly. It’s not worth it.

Murph>>

Murph is right. A new subject law goes into effect in Florida on July 1. See below.

CS/SB 752: Defamation, False Light, and Unauthorized Publication of Name or Likenesses​

GENERAL BILL by Judiciary ; Senator Simon - The Florida Senate


Defamation, False Light, and Unauthorized Publication of Name or Likenesses; Requiring that certain articles or broadcasts be removed from any website over which the newspaper, broadcaster, or periodical has control within a specified period to limit damages for defamation; providing persons in certain positions relating to newspapers with immunity for defamation if such persons exercise due care to prevent publication or utterance of such a statement; declaring that the continued appearance on any website over which the newspaper, broadcaster, or periodical has control of a published statement determined to be false is deemed to be a new publication of the false statement for certain purposes and that the owner, licensee, or operator is not entitled to a certain privilege, etc.

Effective Date: 7/1/2025

Last Action: 3/26/2025 Senate - Now in Rules

That bill has died without having been enacted into law.

There was no law enacted, only a bill that has been subsequently withdrawn.

(All proposed Florida bills are assigned an "effective date", even though they haven't moved through all the necessary committees, let alone be brought to the floor for a vote or having been signed into law by the governor.)

" Last Action: 5/3/2025 Senate - Indefinitely postponed and withdrawn from consideration."

Senate Bill 752 (2025) - The Florida Senate

www.flsenate.gov

Regardless, that bill, even had it been enacted, had no bearing on the discussion at hand.

The threshold for legal defamation is extremely high and people shouldn't be discouraged against speaking their opinions on internet message boards when they believe something is amiss.

 

[45NUTT]

This is the reason I do not dabble in the world of antique martial revolvers, be it S&W or Colt. The money is too big and I don't know enough to not be sucker punched! Still, it is a nice historical piece even if not quite correct.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Interesting discussion.

I'm not a collector of firearms, however I'm a collector of knowledge.

I always appreciate a person for speaking up in honesty and sharing information for no gain except to be a good person to others.

I'm a big fan of the 1st Amendment and it's our 2nd Amendment that protects the 1st Amendment.

Good job Webb.