S&W model 39 and ISP issue ammo

[VASCAR2]

Here are some pictures of Old Illinois State Police issue ammo. This box of ammo was discovered at HQ and was given to me by a Superior many years ago.

I wasn't on the ISP when this ammo was issued but here is a picture of my S&W model 39-2 I carried in the late 70's. I thought the forum members might be interested in seeing photos of this ammo.

The Box was for 50 cartridges of Winchester 100 grain Round Nose FMJ, reported to be the second type of ammo issued by the ISP for the S&W model 39. This 100 grain FMJ was probably issued in the early 1970's. The Winchester box contained six 100 grain RN FMJ with nickel cases, four Federal 95 grain JSP in nickel cases and one Winchester 95 grain JSP cartridge.

This pictures shows the box and top view of the cartridges.

This picture shows a side view of the 100 grain RN FMJ.

This picture is a side view of the Federal 95 grain Jacketed Soft Point cartridges.

This photo shows the Winchester 95 grain JSP on the left of the four Federal 95 grain JSP. The Winchester 95 grain JSP ammo was issued for a short time after the failure of the original Winchester 115 grain Silvertip with Aluminum Magnesium jacket. Once the Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ was adopted the Winchester 95 grain JSP was replaced by the new JHP.

Here is a picture of the case heads, left to right, FMJ, Federal JSP and one W-W JSP.

 

[Golphin]

Interesting ammo. I see the boxes have "Pressure Levels Exceed Industry Standards Use Only in Pistols" What are they saying not to use it in? Also keep out of reach of children. Not sure it would endanger them unless they had a gun. Mayne if they tried to swallow it.

 

[ispcapt]

For a while prior to the Federal 95 JSP the ISP issued a round nose JSP. Don't recall the weight. 125 gr?
Then the Federal 95 gr JSP as shown. Still have a couple of boxes.
Then for a very short time the W-W 115 Silvertip which was immediately pulled out of service after the Joliet shooting. I was off duty at home when my Cpl called and said don't carry the Silvertip, carry whatever I had and he would get me replacement as soon as it arrived. A few days later he brought me a couple of boxes of Federal 115 BP. We carried the BP for maybe a year then went to the Federal 115 BPLE.
After the BPLE we went to a W-W 115 load. Can't recall the number on it. +P stuff. That was for only a few months until we went to the w-W 115 +P+.
The only ammo of the above I no longer have are the W-W load we were issued after the BPLE. Still have a box of the BP and several of the BPLE and the W-W +P+.
The period for the BP and W-W +P was so short that they might not have made it out to all the districts until the BPLE and W-W +P+ arrived. Those of us on SWAT (what we called TRT back then) were burning a lot of ammo so we were getting whatever we could from the main Pawnee and Fairgrounds ranges.

 

[VASCAR2]

Captain, I can't remember for sure but I think the 439 were being issued around the time the W-W 115 grain JHP +P+ was adopted. I've read that the Walker administration would not authorize hollow point ammo for the ISP.

I read that Gov Thompson's administration approved the use of JHP for ISP. I think Thompson was elected in 1977-1978 so I kind of remember Troopers getting hollow points around 1979 to 1980. I was thinking the Federal 9BP standard pressure was the first JHP ammo issued. I remembered Troopers being issued the 9BP +P and the shooting where the Silvertip was used. I heard the lube from the aluminum magnizium jacketed Silvertip contaminated the powder reducing velocity.

My recollection was the first W-W 115 grain JHP +P+ was issued around 1985-1986. I looked on the internet and it showed the S&W 439 was introduced in 1979 but I don't remember what year ISP started issuing the model 439.

 

[VASCAR2]

Interesting ammo. I see the boxes have "Pressure Levels Exceed Industry Standards Use Only in Pistols" What are they saying not to use it in? Also keep out of reach of children. Not sure it would endanger them unless they had a gun. Mayne if they tried to swallow it.

ISP range staff worked with Smith & Wesson to improve the model 39 plus and were requesting ammunition loaded to ISP specification. The ISP shot many thousands of Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ in second and third generation S&W pistols.

The ISP was good about replacing recoil springs and inspecting weapons which was not always the case in LE. I never saw any reliability problems with the 2nd & 3rd gen S&W pistols even though most qualification and training was completed using the +P+ ammo.

For selected weapons on a restricted basis this ammo was safe as far as I'm concerned. I sure wouldn't shoot W-W +P+ in an old Llama 9 MM.

Here is a picture of two of the ammo boxes for 115 grain +P+.

 

[whitestang]

I recall the Joliet shooting and I was called on my day off to come in and change out my Silver Tips. I don't recall what we used other than the Sheriff had gotten the ammo from a gun shop. The report that came out later had stated that there was a problem with powder in the Silver Tips as I recall.

 

[ispcapt]

Captain, I can't remember for sure but I think the 439 were being issued around the time the W-W 115 grain JHP +P+ was adopted.

I only carried a 439 for a few months. Those on TRT were allowed to carry personally owned 459 on duty so my 439 got very little use.

I've read that the Walker administration would not authorize hollow point ammo for the ISP.
I read that Gov Thompson's administration approved the use of JHP for ISP. I think Thompson was elected in 1977-1978 so I kind of remember Troopers getting hollow points around 1979 to 1980.

Had not heard that on Walker. Reliable HP development was pretty lacking until the 1980s.

I was thinking the Federal 9BP standard pressure was the first JHP ammo issued. I remembered Troopers being issued the 9BP +P and the shooting where the Silvertip was used. I heard the lube from the aluminum magnizium jacketed Silvertip contaminated the powder reducing velocity.

Yup, that's what I heard too on the Silvertip. Don't know if true or rumor.
The Silvertip was designed as a rapid expansion, limited penetration round. The FBI was pushing that theory back then with RII and their Computerman modeling. So it did perform as designed. Street results showed that wasn't a good theory.

My recollection was the first W-W 115 grain JHP +P+ was issued around 1985-1986.

I can't recall either but I think you're right about that time. It prior to 1988. At the Oconee shooting our people were using the W-W round and the shooter was using the BPLE which had been our round.

I looked on the internet and it showed the S&W 439 was introduced in 1979 but I don't remember what year ISP started issuing the model 439.

We went to the 439 in 1981. I transferred districts in late 1981. My old district had not completely transitioned when I left and I had not gotten my 439 yet. When I got to my new district everyone already had the 439.

 

[SG-688]

100 gr WW FMJ Q4032
100 gr WW JSP Power Point
115 gr Federal BPIL JHP (+P?? +P+??)


Somehow I've lost my pictures of the 95 gr. Federal JSP. I have 4 boxes or so in both nickel and brass cases.

Don't know when you guys first had it. I first saw the 100 gr WW JSP issued in 1976 but we informally tested some in about 1972. All I ever saw was in standard commercial boxes.

I got the .38 E-IL from the notorious Moon. At the time, he said it was +P+ but, as with the BPIL, even Federal cannot confirm that now.

According to gossip, like just about everybody else, ISP is dumping the current .40 S&W and going back to 9 mm.

 

[ispcapt]

Top left is the Federal 95 gr JSP.
Top right is W-W 115 +P+ and Federal BPLE.
Bottom left is a 115 JHP that was sold under the S&W label. That was never issued. One of the guys on TRT got several boxes and we played with it a bit on the range but all we did was make empty brass.

 

[Doug M.]

I bought a couple of cases of the 115 +P+ on the state contract in the early 90s. It was $160/case IIRC, and ball was $148/case, so I saw no reason to get the ball ammo at all. The ISP spec ammo was hot, and supposedly only ISP got a real warranty on the S&Ws using it. It also WORKED.

S&W owes the ISP a real debt of gratitude for the work done with the auto pistols. Much of the improvements in the 4 digit pistols over their predecessors was a result of the work of ISP range/armorer staff.

My recollection, which may be flawed: It was pistol only as it was considered too hot for the few SMGs and rifles around at the time.

 

[VASCAR2]

A fellow Trooper shot some W-W 115 grain +P+ in a Marlin Camp Carbine and it was to hot. The ISP Tactical Teams had Colt 9 MM SMG's and shot a lot of +P+ in those.

The Toll Way District 15 issued Revolvers to their plain clothes Officers and I wonder if the Federal 38 Special E-IL was their issued ammo. I think the Investigators in IBI also carried revolvers so the 125 grain Federal JHP could've been their issued ammo. I have seen Federal 9BPLE but never saw any 9BPIL marked ammo boxes.

The Winchester 95 grain JSP bullet had a notched jacket and the bullet profile was very similar to the Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ Bullet.

If I had more of these old ISP cartridges I'd chronograph them but I have no intentions of shooting these.

 

[imarangemaster]

I have a couple hundred rounds of the Federal 115 +P+ ISP load that I use in my Glock 19. Hot stuff!

The PD I worked at in Washington in the 1980s issued Silvertip. The first stuff had the dull aluminum bullets, then Winchester switched the shiny jackets. After the FBI shooting in Florida in 1986, we started to look for something else, but still issued the shiny bullet silvertips.

 

[Rick H.]

I worked for the Wisconsin State Patrol for 26 years and started my career with them in 1981. Prior to that I worked for a department just outside Chicago. Once I got street smart I envied ISP for carrying semi-autos as there were just too many shooting where officers were out-gunned with revolvers. Elmhurst, Ill PD was next door to us and they were already carrying S&W semi-autos, but our admin was stuck on Model 19 revolvers, but at least we had magnum ammunition for duty use.

Once I made the move to Wisconsin a few of us began an effort to convert the Division to semi-autos, but it was a hard row to hoe. They just would not budge from the Model 66's we had, but once again at least we had 158 grain JSP magnum loads. The end came when our Academy saw evidence of severe frame damage near the forcing cones. A few troopers that had really bad damage were issued 586 revolvers as a stop-gap measure, but that was short lived. Unfortunately when we converted to semi-autos they were about the cheapest thing money could buy. I could tell you horror stories about those pistols but it is all in the past.

Around 1985ish we made the conversion to new 9mm's and as I recall we shirt tailed on the ISP contract for ammunition and did so for many years. Our initial duty load was 115 +P+ and it was really fast out of our 5" guns. By that time I had weaseled my way into the firearms program and we chronographed that ammo at about 1400 FPS or thereabouts from our pistols. I was shocked to see the speeds we were getting at the time. As I recall, a few years later ISP switched to a 127 grain load so we made to switch also and that stuff was pretty hot too. I still have some of each and I will have to test them again and get some firm numbers. It was great ammunition though and I was happy to have it. Unfortunately, our pistols didn't like it even though we were told by the manufacturer it was acceptable ammunition for use in their pistols. As a point of information, we went thru 3 changes of 9mm service pistols but all were made by the same manufacturer. All three series had "issues" and finally when I was at the Academy performing weapon inspections for in-service I noticed cracks in the frames extending into the hole for the slide stop lever. Out of 40 pistols six had cracks and that started a poop storm which led to converting to Glock 40's but recently the Division has gone back to 9mm's which in my estimation was a good move. In fact most of the departments in my area have, or are going to be moving to 9mm pistols. I don't have any idea what ammunition they are using, but I will try to find out.

Rick H.

 

[ispcapt]

As I recall, a few years later ISP switched to a 127 grain load so we made to switch also and that stuff was pretty hot too.

We never went to the 127 load. I know some of the guys at the main range played with it and there was talk should we or shouldn't we. They finally decided the 115 +P+ was working, don't mess with something that works.

In fact most of the departments in my area have, or are going to be moving to 9mm pistols.

The ISP is currently looking at going back to 9mm. I don't know if they've surveyed everyone but I've heard from a few who were asked what they wanted. Don't know if it's a done deal or still in the thinking about stage.
Have no idea what 9mm ammo they could be thinking about.

 

[VASCAR2]

The ISP got Gen 4 Glock 22/23 in the last year or two. Glock just released a Gen 5 Glock 22/23 with beefier slide (approximate size of 45 GAP slide) but the same Gen 5 frame as the 17/19.

I put more faith in bullet placement than the difference between 9 MM and 40 S&W ballistically.

Of the new 9 MM bullets on the market the 124 grain Federal HST is what I'm carrying but I think the 115 grain or 124 grain Gold Dot are also good. I like the idea of bonded core to jacket pistol bullets.

I didn't know WSP had gone to Glock, last I knew they carried Rugers.

 

[2K7]

Actually, there were three boxes for the +P+ ammunition...

QUOTE=VASCAR2;140993271]ISP range staff worked with Smith & Wesson to improve the model 39 plus and were requesting ammunition loaded to ISP specification. The ISP shot many thousands of Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ in second and third generation S&W pistols.

The ISP was good about replacing recoil springs and inspecting weapons which was not always the case in LE. I never saw any reliability problems with the 2nd & 3rd gen S&W pistols even though most qualification and training was completed using the +P+ ammo.

For selected weapons on a restricted basis this ammo was safe as far as I'm concerned. I sure wouldn't shoot W-W +P+ in an old Llama 9 MM.

Here is a picture of two of the ammo boxes for 115 grain +P+.

[/QUOTE]
This printed box (not to be confused with the original sticker version) was between the two you have pictured.

The red band in the center of the printed label then read:

FOR ILLINOIS STATE POLICE ONLY
NOT FOR RETAIL SALE

...when this ammunition finally became available to other law enforcement agencies, it changed again to:


FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY.
NOT FOR RETAIL SALE

 

[VASCAR2]

I've probably got 20 or more of the Winchester +P+ ammo boxes of all generations of the 115 grain JHP +P+ duty ammo. I used the boxes to store my reloaded 9 MM ammo. Some of the boxes shipped with styrofoam trays and some boxes had the red plastic tray with foam insert for retaining the cartridge. Most of the empty boxes ended up in the trash after district qualification or training.

Most of the W-W brass from the +P+ ammo had the year stamped on the case head. I've looked at hundreds of my W-W cases and the earliest I remember seeing were 87-88 but that was the approximate time I got hired. I think I was issued a 40 S&W in 2000.

 

[Rick H.]

We never went to the 127 load. I know some of the guys at the main range played with it and there was talk should we or shouldn't we. They finally decided the 115 +P+ was working, don't mess with something that works.


The ISP is currently looking at going back to 9mm. I don't know if they've surveyed everyone but I've heard from a few who were asked what they wanted. Don't know if it's a done deal or still in the thinking about stage.
Have no idea what 9mm ammo they could be thinking about.

Interesting...it's been 14 years since I retired so add on a couple more years to that for when we switched from 115 to 127 grain +P+ Winchester ammo. We were told ISP had a shooting in the Rockford area that didn't quite go as they had hoped with regard to ammunition performance and that they decided to try 127 grain +P+. So I guess that information wasn't exactly correct, no surprise there. Unfortunately, any of the personal responsible for making the change for us to 127 grain +P+ ammunition are long gone now so I never will get the real 411. I am surprised that my agency made the switch without some concrete evidence of better performance from the 127 grain ammunition from another agency. That's very unlike WSP.

I will say that when we converted to Glocks the handgun selection committee that I was on quickly added ammunition and caliber to the discussion. The vast majority of the committee members wanted to go .40, but a couple of us wanted to stay with the 9mm. In the end we were out voted and the .40 was selected. Later on many of our concerns going to a .40 were born out. Another long story....And yes we did carry Ruger P-85's, P-89's and some other model Ruger, the P-93 possibly. All had issues and give me a lot of work as a armorer. The cracked frames on the last series ultimately shut down the love affair with Ruger and resulted in going with Glock. All water under the bridge now. From what I am told the Glocks have done very well for our guys as long as they remember to clear the gun before disassembly!

Rick H.

 

[ispcapt]

We were told ISP had a shooting in the Rockford area that didn't quite go as they had hoped with regard to ammunition performance and that they decided to try 127 grain +P+. So I guess that information wasn't exactly correct, no surprise there.

I don't recall any shooting in Rockford that went bad. In 1980 outside of Joliet there was the shooting involving 2 Troops and a DC Eagle motorcycle member. Quick explanation. Our Troops were using the issued W-W 115 Silvertip. Neither Troop was hurt and the biker died but the Silvertip didn't directly kill him. He shot at the Troops with a 5 shot .38, emptied his gun, jumped on his bike and fell over dead from a heart attack. He was a heart attack waiting to happen. Unhealthy lifestyle. His arteries were plugged. He had been hit 11 times COM with the Silvertip but none of the rounds penetrated deep enough to hit vitals. With his bad arteries/heart the stress of the situation killed him. That's when we got the call to immediately stop carrying the Silvertip and we went to the Federal 115 BP for a while until the BPLE was developed.
At that time the FBI was telling that LE needed rapid expansion/limited penetration. They had developed the RII formula and their Computerman model. Prior the Silvertip we had been carrying the Federal 95 gr JSP. It was a mover. We clocked it once at 1400 fps. As long as there were no barriers it was a great performer. It wasn't very consistent against windshields. Someone bought the FBI's theory and we switched to the Silvertip. We weren't issued the Silvertip but a few months until the Joliet shooting.
My district wouldn't let us keep the Silvertip to even shoot for practice. We had to turn it all in. They said they were concerned someone might still carry it and they didn't want any of it in the field.
The BPLE worked a lot better. I was at the scene when another Troop was shot at by a guy hiding behind an open car door. The Troop returned fire thru the door. We were carrying 439s at the time. While the Troop reloading the guy took off in the dark and down a RR embankment. We looked for him for a couple of hours before I and another Troop found him hiding under a car in a used car lot. We pulled him out and the other Troop handed me the guy's wallet. It was pretty ratty looking. When I opened his wallet I found out why. Inside was a perfectly mushroomed 9mm HP. When he was being shot at he was squatted behind the car door. One of the Troop's BPLE rounds went thru the car door, struck the guy near his knee in the flesh, traveled along his thigh making a cut like he'd been cut with a knife, entered his upper thigh, came out and lodged in his wallet. That evidence pretty well put him at the scene of the shooting which not even the most imginative attorney could argue.

 

[Rick H.]

Thanks for the reply Capt. The Joliet situation sounds like what we were told, but didn't know a thing about the guy passing from a a bad cardio system!! I did some digging thru my old files and found a chronograph report on the Winchester 115 +P+ ammunition we were using. Out of our Rugers (4.5" barrel?) we were getting an average of 1389 FPS for 10 recorded shots. The Winchester 127 +P+ was averaging 1300 FPS for 10 shots. We were using an Ohler chronograph at the time. I still have some of this stuff left and just for grins will test it thru my LabRadar and see if I get close to the same numbers. According to my notes the 115 +P+ load was the fastest one tested. I know we tested several other rounds, but the only record I saved was for the Winchester loads as that was what was being issued. I think this was just prior to switching to the 127 +P+ round.

I recently shot the bull with a trooper that I knew who is still working and he confirmed the fact "officially" to me that they did go back to a Glock 9mm earlier this year. They are now using Federal HST 147 grain ammunition. So it seems they keep trying to reinvent the wheel. Thanks again for the info Captain, it's good to know the real story albeit a bit late.

Rick H.