Schofield "Wells Fargo" research update

[BMur]

Just a quick update.

I compiled all of my notes and discarded redundant information. The researched information strongly suggests 3 distinct sell off's of the Schofield revolver.

The first being circa 1880 amounting to over 3000 guns that were sold to Government Surplus due to the discontinuance of the model. This event was primarily purchased by the "Express" companies of Wells Fargo and American Express.

The second took place in 1891 and is seen in Distributor Catalogs selling large numbers to the Commercial market in 2 distinct barrel lengths. By this time the Schofield revolver was obsolete. No replacement parts were generally available. This was the primary sale to the general public. There is no evidence of a 5" barrel being part of this sell off.


The final sell off took place in 1899 and lasted until the last 100 guns are listed in Bannerman's catalog selling for $7 each circa 1903.

Also, I found "NO Evidence" that a 5" barrel variation was ever sold to the general public. The only contract sale of the 5" barrel variation was sold to "Wells Fargo and American Express in 1880"

The shorter barrel length sold to the Commercial market beginning in 1891 was NOT a 5" barrel. This researched information only supports the surviving 5" barrel lengths found that are unaltered and unmarked are very likely "Express" guns that have had their original Express property stamps removed. The barrel must measure a specific length found in one of 3 known contracts.


Murph

 

[S&W ucla]

That is certainly encouraging for mine It must be a labor of love for you to do all this research. Many thanks and encouragement for your hard work! IIRC, at one time Adams Express was one of the companies that bought some of the 5" guns. Have they been eliminated from the first sell-off, or did they buy during the public sale?

 

[BMur]

Adams Express

That is certainly encouraging for mine It must be a labor of love for you to do all this research. Many thanks and encouragement for your hard work! IIRC, at one time Adams Express was one of the companies that bought some of the 5" guns. Have they been eliminated from the first sell-off, or did they buy during the public sale?

So far I have not documented an Adams Express marked Schofield. It's definitely possible. I have only documented early Colt lightnings that were "deep stamped" on the back strap ADAMS EXPRESS CO and also Iver Johnson double actions that were also deep stamped on the barrel Property of Adams Express Company those revolvers also included a property number. The markings are very unique and uniformed.

The Express companies issued "service revolvers" to their agents. The problem with the Schofield is the early discontinuance gave it a very limited time to be a viable "service revolver". Because of the lack of replacement parts after 1890ish the gun became obsolete. That was the reason for the second sell off in my opinion. Fits like a glove. So basically the Express Companies would have had no interest in the second sell off because of the obsolescence of the model by that time. That's also the reason the gun was now sold to the general public.

The Express companies were by 1890 gradually replacing the Schofield with smaller double action pistols. Like the Iver Johnson for Adams Express and the continued interest in the Colt lightning since it was still being manufactured until 1909 it was still viable, and lastly the double action Smith & Wesson that also included the hammerless Departure model. Huge sales on that model.(U.S.X.)

The same can be said of the U.S. Army replacing the Schofield gradually. Those that were used in the Spanish/American War represented the last of them. Very few left by that time.


Murph

 

[opoefc]

Murph, I think I mentioned this before somewhere on this Forum, but for what it's worth in around the 1950s the Wells fargo Historian supplied me list of their guns sold off in an auction around 1920s at their New York City office that was mostly shotguns but included some Schofields & other handguns. That list is somewhere in my files but I haven't located it as yet. Ed

 

[BMur]

Obsolete weapons

Hi Ed,
Thank You for your input. I actually did document your post both regarding that auction and post 1900 Schofields showing up in Military records.

I have no doubt that both are factual.

In 1918 by order of Woodrow Wilson the Express Companies were to Consolidate and "turn-in" all their weapons to form a singular "Express Company" for the War Effort. Later to settle in on the title "Railway Express Agency". At that time Wells Fargo left the Express business.

Many moons ago I was an auditor for a Major Utility Company in California. From Eureka to Bakersfield. I'd visit service yards and audit work performed for safety standards and procedures. One of the requirements was to "TURN IN" obsolete equipment deemed unsafe by today's standards.....Do you think they did? NOPE!

I found equipment that dated back to the 1930's. Especially in the older power plants. The most common response was: "What's wrong with it"? It still works! The company later required "All employees" to sign documents when advised to "Turn in" hazardous tools so they couldn't claim they were never told.

I can easily see Schofields surviving many years after they were deemed obsolete. Guns are often misplaced, unaccounted for, left somewhere and forgotten. Only to be found years later. Or the most common reason is just the employee doesn't want to "give it up"! I like this gun....There's nothing wrong with it! They can't have it back! I don't like that little 38. I like this 45!!! The company doesn't know what they are doing!!


Murph

 

[BMur]

Sweet Ole' Gal

You know Ed,
I'm guilty too. I use to drive an old 5 ton cab over diesel truck at work. I loved that truck. Turned on a dime, carried tons of equipment, etc. I hated to give it up. The boss at that time said, "Murph, that truck is the oldest in the yard". I'm gonna replace it...I told him if you replace it I'm going back to the service department. It wasn't until the brakes went out and the yard mechanic told me the parts were no longer available. The new truck sucked.

I mean if you were an Express Agent guarding high dollar cargo? What side arm would you prefer? A 45 or a pocket 38? I know what I'd want....The 45.


Murph

 

[opoefc]

Tell me about it !! My favorite vehicle in my fleet is a 1988 Ford Aerostar cargo van with a mild RV conversion ( Capt chairs, curtains, carpets, etc ) It has 225,000 miles on it and I've rebuilt the motor once and replaced most other running parts, as needed, except the auto tranny which still works great. I've been to gun shows, etc. all over the US in it and hope to continue for awhile. Now with the internet, I can usually go online and find any needed parts . (Just found an original Ford factory ignition switch locally to replace the old one that had worn tumblers ) It will probably out last me & my kids know to haul my remains to the nearest military cemetary in it ! Ed
(PS: It was made in St. Louis, MO and that's where I was born, so maybe Karma ? )

 

[BMur]

Official records

I've located some outstanding period records of robberies, firearms, specific's regarding Express Company staff, monies, names, places, expenses, significant events, huge amount of information.

I hope to find information within regarding the issuance of the Schofields. The records are quite lengthy and detailed so it will take some time. I'll post what I find ASAP.

Here is just a clip. Notice the Express Deaths listed in the line of duty from 1869-1875.These are "only" those who were insured. Who knows the actual number of total deaths on the job. Steadily increasing as crime also increased. Also, the documented robberies are absolutely astounding. It really was an epidemic of crime. Sort of like today. Crime is rampant. The Express Guards had a very dangerous job. That's for sure.

The below photo's represent just one month and I can't list all the robberies. 16 listed from Well's Fargo alone. There's also Adam's Express, Southern Express, American Express, and U.S. Express that reported significant robberies as well. Just one month! December 1875. No wonder they needed so many guns!

Murph

 

[BMur]

More information

I have to take a few days off. Just a quick update.

The Train robberies were so bad that in December of 1895 The United States House of Representatives, Senate, Congress, enacted H.R.1651 that included the "Death Penalty" if a train was purposely derailed, wrecked, blocked, etc in the act of robbing it or it's passengers, etc.

Also, there were 4 types of Express Agents:

General Agent
Route Agent
Station Agent
Assistant Agent

All are listed as armed with a "Company Provided" pistol. That's huge! Proof that the Express Companies issued Pistols to their agents. They were not privately purchased nor were they owned by the individual employee.

Also, photo 1. You will note in the excellent documented robbery that the "Messengers" were also armed with a Company issued revolver. That adds 4130 head count to the total guns purchased by the Express Companies. Clearly listed in these Company documents. They also list a total of 29,550 Express Agents from all the Express Companies combined in June of 1890. That's a lot of guns! Also clearly mentioned is the Company policies regarding the firearms use. Read it closely. Very detailed information.

My estimate from my research was 35,000. I was pretty close.

These numbers are from the Express Company combined reports clearly posted.

I can also see why American Express and Wells Fargo bought the Schofields. They were like twins, literally. It was a family relation type set up. A father being a supervisor in Wells Fargo with a son a Manager in American Express. Very closely tied. Clearly listed in records. In fact all the Express Companies were pretty closely tied but not like Wells Fargo and American Express. Fits like a glove.

So far lots of Colts, Winchesters, Henry's, and Shotguns mentioned. Along with robbers weapons, derringers, etc. No Smiths yet but I have a ton left to review.


Murph

 

[BMur]

Frank James, Express Guard????

I'm back into the research.

Just have to take a quick break to post this. This is amazing stuff. The Great Frank James an "Express Guard"? This is circa 1895 from Express records.

To me it says a lot about how dangerous an Express Agent's job was and how desperate the Express Companies were to stop robberies.

Murph

 

[BMur]

"Railroad casualties"?? "Wow"!!!

Documenting unbelievable numbers recorded by the Railroad industry. I had NO IDEA how dangerous it was working for the Railroad. Check out photo 1.

Just for those who don't appreciate numbers.

If you were "LUCKY ENOUGH" to have survived for 30 years of working for the Railroad and actually made it to retirement? There would have been an unbelievable 54,000 fellow employee deaths during your tenure. All dying on the job. That is just horrendous. Talk about a dangerous job. That's like a football stadium "filled" to the max with people who died during your 30-year career before you were lucky enough to make it to retirement!

So back then, if you worked for the railroad? The odds are pretty good that you'd be one of those people in that stadium.

It's amazing how quickly the past is forgotten. The Railway industry was actually proud of these numbers back then. Very hard to comprehend this stuff. We are lucky to live now, that's for sure.

Murph

 

[first-model]

It's amazing how quickly the past is forgotten. The Railway industry was actually proud of these numbers back then. Very hard to comprehend this stuff. We are lucky to live now, that's for sure.

It wasn't just the railroads. This was a time when safety laws and standards were virtually non-existent, when mortality rates were much higher, and when the average life expectancy was probably several decades shorter than it is now. Compound that with the fact that medicine at the time was only beginning to discover the wonders of antiseptics, and it's remarkable to think that anyone ever survived more than a paper cut (and indeed, many didn't).

It's no wonder that we saw such a rise in organized labor during this time.

To bring this back to guns ... there was an explosion at Leet's ammunition factory (just down the road from S&W) in 1864. Many of the people killed in that explosion were women and children employed to load the cartridges with powder and bullets. Let that sink in for a minute ... a 13 year old boy being torn to shreds from a loose powder explosion.

Rufus A Simpson (1851-1864) - Find a Grave Memorial

Mike

 

[BMur]

Old Records

The problem with these electronic records is that they are not in the least organized. A compiling of thousands of pages of records that bounce between 1875-1923... so this will take some time.

I did find more legal reference that allowed the Messengers and Agents to be legally armed with "concealed" weapons. That actually pre-dates the Company's requiring their employees to carry a loaded pistol and "use it" when being robbed. Photo 1.

The legal reference to carry concealed dates to 1876. The Company reference dates to 1877. So they got right on it. This is also 3 years before the Schofields were purchased by Wells Fargo and American Express. So concealed carry was already legally established prior to their purchase.

Applying these documented "FACTS", the Schofield revolvers were also very likely carried concealed by both messengers and agents using a shoulder type holster. It wasn't like the movies with them using a hip holster. I have also documented Colt Lightning Express shoulder holsters. I have not yet found a Schofield shoulder holster. I'm still looking.

Early Express Holsters are "extremely" rare.


Much later the Railway Express transferred to a hip type flap holster that is fairly common in the collectable market today. Adams Express also changed to a hip flap holster when using the Iver Johnson double action revolvers.


Murph

 

[Model19man]

Fascinating. Please keep us informed on this - and nice work by the way.

 

[BMur]

Early Express Markings

I’m finding more evidence that the Railroad also purchased pistols in large numbers to arm guards and conductors. Very clearly documented in records and armed robberies where robbers relieve guards and conductors of concealed pistols.

Early markings are those seen in photo 1.
Originating as an early railroad pistol, then obtained by American Express Co. The 4 digit number is both a property number “and” an inventory number stamped on the gun prior to 1890 when these guns were being phased out with Colt Lightnings and Smith & Wesson double actions ordered directly from the factory.

Notice the high number? 2626? That is correct. I’ve documented the lowest number on an early Colt Lightning being property/ inventory number 12. These numbers do not match the serial number. They represent a gun count! The highest number 2815. That is how many pistols American Express had in inventory “Prior” to 1890! Likely more! That’s just the highest number I have found!

The Schofields would be part of this inventory and would have been stamped like this one. I have documented several. That is clearly the procedure that American Express followed according to my research. Very consistent.

Just gives us a clear picture of how many pistols they had! Not 80, or a couple hundred or even 1200? They had thousands!

This latest researched information documented by the Express Companies only continues to back up the need for those numbers! Very consistent. Numbers don’t lie!

Murph

 

[DWalt]

It wasn't just the railroads. This was a time when safety laws and standards were virtually non-existent, when mortality rates were much higher, and when the average life expectancy was probably several decades shorter than it is now. Compound that with the fact that medicine at the time was only beginning to discover the wonders of antiseptics, and it's remarkable to think that anyone ever survived more than a paper cut (and indeed, many didn't).

It's no wonder that we saw such a rise in organized labor during this time.

To bring this back to guns ... there was an explosion at Leet's ammunition factory (just down the road from S&W) in 1864. Many of the people killed in that explosion were women and children employed to load the cartridges with powder and bullets. Let that sink in for a minute ... a 13 year old boy being torn to shreds from a loose powder explosion.

Rufus A Simpson (1851-1864) - Find a Grave Memorial

Mike

Back in my old Ohio home town, in 1904 there was a factory which made toy cap pistols and caps. There was a huge explosion in the cap making area which killed three employees and badly injured over 30 more, and destroyed the factory. Nearly every casualty was a teen-aged girl.

 

[BMur]

The Year 1880

I've completed my research for the year 1880. At least what I could find. Unfortunately, there is no mention of the purchase of Government Surplus Arms.

At this point I'm of the opinion that the purchase may not have taken place in 1880. It might have taken place after that year. I'll keep looking.

I did find even more information that "every" Express office was armed with an office agent. Both a shotgun and pistol. Very clearly documented in the lengthy list of recorded robberies. So that just adds more numbers to the total firearm count. Which is enormous at this point.

Also, the office agent often actually slept in the office, armed. Those offices that were robbed were often empty and at nighttime. Usually, when little or low dollars were in the office safe but not always.

Very interesting reading material.

The recorded number of agents, offices, messengers, coaches, Express Cars, etc? Huge numbers of firearms were needed. Also, the listed size and increase in the Railroad in the 1879-1880 timeframe only increased the need for more armed agents and therefore firearms. Increasing 8000 miles of rail laid in the year 1879-1880. This is recorded as a "record year". That included new stations, express offices, express cars, more agents, messengers, etc. This documented information justifies the need for even more firearms at that time. This is the important part of research. Uncovering the "reason" and painting the picture of what was happening at that time that justified the Express Companies purchasing the Schofield Surplus revolvers in bulk!

It's hard to imagine the Railroad actually laying 8000 miles of rail in one year but it's clearly documented. That is amazing growth and would "require" the need for more firearms on a large scale!


Murph

 

[BMur]

Pre-1900 Express Holsters

With this latest documented info on “Legal Concealed Carry
I thought I’d post some of my antique Express holsters that I’ve had in my collection over 40 years now.

First photo is an “ American Express Colt Lightning” Circa 1890’s

Second photo is a Schofield “Wells Fargo” ( With Provenance)
Circa 1880’s.

The open carry flap holsters were not common until post 1900 when the robberies were less frequent due to the enforcement of the “death penalty” for train robbery.

The Colt Lightning survived for this change, however the Schofields were for the most part, gone by then.


Murph