Second Model Schofield U.S. Army Original Nickel Plating?

[cotton42]

This Schofield is from my late father's collection. A couple of questions for the forum

1) The gun is marked "US". However is the nickel plating original to the gov contract or post gov service? The plating looks period to the gun's early years and looks to be a professional job.
2) Are S&W's of this type and vintage generally holding value? Or is collector interest (and hence premium values) moving to smokeless SW's?

I would appreciate thoughts on value for this particular Schofield.

 

[opoefc]

There a few original nickel plated military Schofields, however 90% of the time when you see one, it's a gun that has been refinished in nickel. Your gun looks very nice in the photo, too nice for a gun that has seen frontier military usage. If it was refinished by the S&W factory, stampings under the grips, on the grip frame, can tell us that. What is stamps there?
Schofields are holding their values very well. In fact , high prices are being recorded at auctions for minty specimens that are US stamped. Ed.

 

[glowe]

Looking at the numbers and US on the butt, I would guess that that area has never seen a buffer or sandpaper. Those numbers look way too fresh to be refinished in that location and the overall gun looks almost perfectly nickeled, with no indication of refinish. The dark coloration of the latch and the trigger guard bother me a little, not having seen any other examples with that appearance. The other issue that bothers me is most of the screw heads show indication of damage by using a poorly fitting screwdriver. Why would a pristine unissued gun need to be taken apart?? In order for that Schofield to be original, it would have to been unissued and kept at the armory. 150 years is way too long for any old west gun to hold that condition if used.

It is not impossible to have found a Schofield that was never issued and set in it's box for 150 years, but unlikely. If, and I am just saying if, your revolver is original, it is worth well into the 5 figures at auction. Very rare finish and very desirable collector piece, so the sky is the limit. To start, I would obtain a factory letter from Roy Jinks to authenticate the gun as original. The letter can be had for $50.

 

[murphydog]

Beautiful gun. You already have feedback from very experienced collectors. Here is the link to request a historical letter, but expect a 2-3 month wait:

Firearm History Request - Smith & Wesson

 

[cotton42]

I have another gun in the collection that to an untrained eye is very much refinished. However, I looked at the Schofield again this morning and tt doesn't look refinished to me. Dad was always of the opinion that the finish was period to the gun's early years. Someone told me that Custer's scout's Colts were nickeled from the factory as a part of the gov contract....that being anecdotal evidence that some military service pieces were nickeled. However a letter from Jinks is called for.

I took the grips off and there are no stamps under the grips. The grips carry the same SN.

There is a "C" and a "P" under the barrel near the pivot. The same C and P appear when you break the gun and expose the part of the frame under the cylinder.

 

[glowe]

Could the "C" be an "L"? Standard martial marks for these revolvers were L & P. These markings are generally found under the barrel and on the rear of the cylinder. Also, the top of the frame and the left side of the grip was marked JFEC. Some were also found with W & P.

 

[cotton42]

Could the "C" be an "L"? Standard martial marks for these revolvers were L & P. These markings are generally found under the barrel and on the rear of the cylinder. Also, the top of the frame and the left side of the grip was marked JFEC. Some were also found with W & P.

Will some good close ups later this afternoon

 

[Wiregrassguy]

The pin posts appear to be raised. Those would likely have been ground down when polishing off an original finish. It looks a lot like my .32 DA top break. Amazing condition for such an old revolver.

 

[Masterpiece]

Standard martial marks for these revolvers were L & P.

cotton42 ,

As glowe stated, the L, W & P markings are among the Markings found on these Schofields, but the L & P are the only ones found on both First & Second Models....No W's on First's!! Although as yours is a very late Second Model, legitimate markings to be found are a P Proof stamp in all locations, as well as an L, C, E or W Sub-Inspector stamp on the Flat of the Barrel, in the Channel under the Cylinder, & between the Chambers on the Rear Face of the Cylinder!!

I'd like to add, while your Revolver is a very fine specimen indeed, I'll have to agree with Ed (opoefc) that this was more than likely Nickeled after it was originally produced as some of the Surplus Second Models were sold off to S&W Distributors...*most of them to Schyler,Hartley & Graham*... and Nickeled when they were still in Unissued Condition!! This may also explain why yours is still so pristine!!

I'd also have to believe this may be why I see no evidence of any Cartouches on the Grips!! Especially the lack of Date Stamp generally found on the Left Grip which is a very deep stamping!! Maybe the add'l photos will give us a better idea!!

As always, the only way to know for sure is to have Roy check into it & see what he has to say!!

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Masterpiece,
Were the unissued revolvers kept in the white until they were either issued or disposed of?

 

[Masterpiece]

Were the unissued revolvers kept in the white until they were either issued or disposed of?

Guy,

Not to my knowledge as these Unissued Revolvers would have certainly been through Final Inspection & available to be issued, but never were!! Given that, when these were sold off, it would have been very easy for them to have been stripped of the Blue Finish & very little, if any, polishing done to have them Nickeled!! This is why I believe cotton42's Revolver exhibits nearly no visible signs of being polished, as it would have, had it previously been in service & plated later!! Although over the years there have been several references made that a few of these are thought to have been Originally Nickeled, but I personally have never seen or known of one that "Lettered" as such!! It's going to be interesting to hear what Roy has to say when he does the research!!

 

[cotton42]

I couldn't get the photos to upload to the forum. So, I sent them over to this shutterfly link:http://swforum.shutterfly.com/

From what I gather, it appears the nickel plating was done early in the gun's life but after it left gov ownership.

Also, there are no stamps on the frame under the grips. Only one of the grips has a SN, but it is the same as the gun.

 

[Masterpiece]

From what I gather, it appears the nickel plating was done early in the gun's life but after it left gov ownership.

Also, there are no stamps on the frame under the grips. Only one of the grips has a SN, but it is the same as the gun.

Jay,

Your Revolver is most certainly a very fine example & has considerable value even if it can't be documented as the Original Finish!! As I stated previously, if this doesn't Letter as being original, it most certainly looks to have been Nickeled when the Revolver was "As New" because I see no evidence whatsoever of being anything more than the Original Blued Finish stripped & then Nickeled as all the edges, pins, stampings, etc. are still as sharp as the day it was made!!

I also noticed you didn't post any photos of the Grips in your gallery!! Did you see any evidence of a Cartouche "Anywhere" on them!! Would it be possible for you to add a couple?? Reason being, sometimes a photo will bring things out that aren't easily seen with the naked eye!!

By the way, you "Are" going to send in a request for Roy to research this.... aren't you?? I think it would be a very good idea, as you never know, it may be one of the very few that are believed to have been Originally Nickel-Plated!! Whatever you decide, this is a Very Exceptional Condition Schofield!! Thanks for sharing!!

 

[handejector]

Letter that gun!

It looks utterly gorgeous to me.

"C" is Lt. J.F.E. Chamberlain, the sub-inspector under Lt. D.A. Lyle.
P is passed, or Proofed. Take your pick.

It is likely nickeled by one of the surplus dealers who bought them. They usually required little or no polishing.
The grips are refinshed, and that is why the cartouches are absent.

The latches and trigger guards were not nickeled, and remained blue.

The screws are buggered because there was often a need to disassemble the Mod 3's of all types. The latch screws are the most buggered because someone probably removed them numerous times to clean the cyl, not knowing any better. It is only necessary to turn the rear screw a half turn and the cyl retainer will lift, allowing the cyl to be removed.

The Mod 3's often needed some tuning if they saw any use. Heat treating and spring technology was NOT what it is today. I have seen hammers and triggers split and/or broken in half. The old springs sometimes break. Guns also got dropped in mud, sand, creeks, and probably manure a time or two. I would imagine they were sometimes drenched in rain, sweat, or blood.
So, there were lots of reasons for the old guns to get opened up. It is rare to find one that saw any use that hasn't had the screws turned.

Also, on the Custer scout Colts-
The belief that they were nickeled is a myth. It stems from an 1874 photo of Custer and three scouts in which two Colts appear to be "white" like nickeled guns. Most photographic authorities agree that smooth metal simply reflected enough light to appear as nickel in that era's photos.
Proponents of the 'Nickeled scout gun theory' never want to deal with a rifle in the same photo which also appears to be nickeled!

 

[Masterpiece]

The grips are refinshed, and that is why the cartouches are absent.

I had suspicions to that effect myself, but was hoping he'd post a few add'l close-up photos to his gallery before making my final decision!!

 

[cotton42]

Jay,

Your Revolver is most certainly a very fine example & has considerable value even if it can't be documented as the Original Finish!! As I stated previously, if this doesn't Letter as being original, it most certainly looks to have been Nickeled when the Revolver was "As New" because I see no evidence whatsoever of being anything more than the Original Blued Finish stripped & then Nickeled as all the edges, pins, stampings, etc. are still as sharp as the day it was made!!

I also noticed you didn't post any photos of the Grips in your gallery!! Did you see any evidence of a Cartouche "Anywhere" on them!! Would it be possible for you to add a couple?? Reason being, sometimes a photo will bring things out that aren't easily seen with the naked eye!!

By the way, you "Are" going to send in a request for Roy to research this.... aren't you?? I think it would be a very good idea, as you never know, it may be one of the very few that are believed to have been Originally Nickel-Plated!! Whatever you decide, this is a Very Exceptional Condition Schofield!! Thanks for sharing!!

Many thanks to all who responded! The grips are visible in the first set of photos. I didn't do any closeups because the cartouches are not there.

I will get it lettered ASAP.

 

[Masterpiece]

I will get it lettered ASAP.

Jay,

Just so you're aware, it will take some time for the Letter to arrive as I believe Roy's now on vacation which will most likely add nearly a month to his current backlog of approx. 10 to 12 weeks from what I've been hearing as of late!! No worries....we'll be patiently waiting right along with you!! Good Luck!!

 

[opoefc]

Unfortunately guys, Schofields are the one type of S&Ws that won't letter, in the sense that we think of the usual shipping ledger info. that Roy can extract and put in a letter. There are no S&W shipping records of US Schofields. A factory letter from Roy will give the invoice date in 1875-77 that S&W billed the Army for the Schofields, and there's no factory records of the configuration of the US Schofields, as to whether they were blue or nickel. Non US Commerical Schofields, shipped to S&W distributors, are in the shipping ledgers and letters for them have the same info. usually seen in factory letters, such as to whom, where and in what configuration the gun was shipped. The bottom-line is that a factory letter won't tell the poster whether his gun is a factory nickeled gun, or not. My opinion is that it , being a late gun, it was never issued for field use and was one of the guns, either turned over to a state militia, or sold to a surplus dealer, and it was refinished by the dealer for commercial sale. Some of the surplus dealers stamped the guns on the inside grip frame with their stamp. For example, A.J.Plate sold Schofields have a very small triangle, with a "P" inside, stamped on the toe of the right grip frame. There are some receipts in the Springfield Armory archives for sales of US Schofields to individual officers, no serial numbers listed, however. As with Colt's, those officers could have their purchases nickeled by Springfield Armory. Ed.

 

[Masterpiece]

Hi Ed,

Thanks, although I was hoping things had changed for his sake!! I knew Roy's Later Letters on the NM#3's included more info than they used to, but I wasn't sure if any new info had surfaced on the Schofields or not!! Given that, I had sent Jay a couple photos of my early Schofield letters so he had an idea what to expect if things hadn't changed so he wasn't disappointed!! Thanks again for the update!!

 

[cotton42]

Letter that gun!

It looks utterly gorgeous to me.

"C" is Lt. J.F.E. Chamberlain, the sub-inspector under Lt. D.A. Lyle.
P is passed, or Proofed. Take your pick.

It is likely nickeled by one of the surplus dealers who bought them. They usually required little or no polishing.
The grips are refinshed, and that is why the cartouches are absent.

The latches and trigger guards were not nickeled, and remained blue.

The screws are buggered because there was often a need to disassemble the Mod 3's of all types. The latch screws are the most buggered because someone probably removed them numerous times to clean the cyl, not knowing any better. It is only necessary to turn the rear screw a half turn and the cyl retainer will lift, allowing the cyl to be removed.

The Mod 3's often needed some tuning if they saw any use. Heat treating and spring technology was NOT what it is today. I have seen hammers and triggers split and/or broken in half. The old springs sometimes break. Guns also got dropped in mud, sand, creeks, and probably manure a time or two. I would imagine they were sometimes drenched in rain, sweat, or blood.
So, there were lots of reasons for the old guns to get opened up. It is rare to find one that saw any use that hasn't had the screws turned.

Also, on the Custer scout Colts-
The belief that they were nickeled is a myth. It stems from an 1874 photo of Custer and three scouts in which two Colts appear to be "white" like nickeled guns. Most photographic authorities agree that smooth metal simply reflected enough light to appear as nickel in that era's photos.
Proponents of the 'Nickeled scout gun theory' never want to deal with a rifle in the same photo which also appears to be nickeled!

Lee, I had the gun lettered. It left S&W in April 1877 as a blued gun, so, that's that. However, I'm still amazed by the quality of the plating (i.e., pins not ground down, etc.) especially when I look at other examples of plated Schofields on the forum. You can see a flat spot on the grip where the cartouche was sanded down and there are no factory refinishing marks on the frame under the grips.

More photos are here: Message
(there are two albums of photos)

Is there anything to infer about the quality of the plating job as it pertains to the value of the gun? I know blued would be better...just curious how much this replating job affects value?