Seeking info on Blackhorn 209 powder

[AveragEd]

I have one of the new Remington Model 700UML muzzleloaders and have found numerous combinations of bullets and black powder substitutes that yield acceptable accuracy but I seek better groups. I've tried three kinds of pelletized fuel, three kinds of loose powder and 12 different bullets with my best groups coming with loose Triple Se7en FFg and the Powerbelt 295-grain hollow-point. Every supposedly black powder-knowledgeable person with whom I have spoken raved about Blackhorn 209 but I have a question I need answered before trying it and none of the people I've talked to have been able to answer it.

Its label states its residue cannot be left in the bore for long as it will cause corrosion and that it cannot be cleaned from a barrel using typical black powder cleansing products. Normal smokeless powder solvents must be used and therein lies my problem.

Let's say I shoot at a deer early one morning and whether I miss or want to fill a second tag that day, I reload my rifle. Now, if the residue can damage my barrel and I go all day without shooting again, will I cause said damage? And if I clean the barrel with the aromatic solvents required, won't that leave an oily coating in the junction of the bore and breech plug that would contaminate the powder charge? Not to mention what the solvent's smell will do to any neighboring deer...

One gun shop owner agreed and told me that you have to fire a fouling shot to burn that leftover solvent out of the barrel. But when I asked if that wouldn't introduce another corrosive coating of powder residue, he conceded that could be a vicious circle. Then there's the issue of firing a shot for no reason with the obvious result of spooking any deer from where you are hunting.

These rifles use much hotter centerfire large rifle magnum primers for ignition instead of #209 shotgun primers and because of that, can be loaded with up to 200 grains by volume (or four pellets) of black powder or a substitute. Could just touching off one of those primers clear that solvent? Not that a large rifle primer is very quiet...

So have any of you used Blackhorn 209 enough to quench my fears? And was the stuff really that much more accurate for you? The only shop where I have been able to find any in stock wanted $38 for a 10-ounce bottle - that's pretty pricy, so it better be good!

Thanks in advance.

Ed

 

[Engineer1911]

Corrosion is a process that happens over days to weeks not 8 hours in a hunting day. You may get a slight surface smut in 1 day that will be removed immediately with end of the day cleaning. You don't have a problem. Enjoy your hunting season!

 

[AveragEd]

I get that but something about the chemical composition of Blackhorn 209 must make it especially corrosive. None of the labels on Triple Se7en or Pyrodex in either loose powder or pellet form contain that warning - nor do smokeless powder labels. That's the basis for my concern and I'm hoping to hear from actual users of the product.

Ed

 

[rsrocket1]

I've gone through about 2 containers of BH209 in the past year (just target shooting) using my CVA Optima Pro V1. BH209 is about the least corrosive stuff you will use in your muzzleloader. It smokes about as much as shooting a normal .308 rifle and you really don't need to swab between shots. I typically shoot about 15-20 shots in a range session and when using BH209 I don't swab between shots. Accuracy does not change between the early and later shots. It can change between the first and subsequent shots however. I always shoot 3 primers at the beginning of each session to ensure the breech plug is cleared out and to make sure the bore is dried out of any oils. It may be overkill but it costs only 9 cents to do it so I don't worry about that.

As for cleaning when I get home, I run a couple of wet patches of Hoppes No9 followed by a couple of dry patches and finally a damp patch of CLP or a spritz of Rem Oil followed by a single dry patch to soak up any residue. I don't want a dripping barrel, just a very thin film to prevent corrosion of bare metal if the gun sits around for months without shooting.

I started out using my cast Lee TL452-230-TC's in a T/C yellow sabot

and got pretty good accuracy out to 100 yards with 80g BH209

Since this is all just fun shooting for me, I've been trying to cut costs so I've gone to using cast Lee 250g REAL bullets and Alliant BlackMZ. That stuff meters like cat litter, is much more smokey and requires swabbing with a dry patch between each shot, but costs half of BH209 so I like it for cheap paper punching (total cost of 18 cents/shot for everything).

I do recommend BH209 for quality muzzleloading shooting so long as you have the proper gun to use it. I don't recommend BlackMZ except for "fun" shooting at a low cost.

Here's a comparison of the smoke between BH209 and BlackMZ (supposedly about the same amount of smoke as true black powder)
Here's a comparison of the smoke between BH209 and BlackMZ.

Just for fun, here is a video of some of the bullets in slow motion.


Just for fun, here is a video of some of the bullets in slow motion.

Hope that helps.

 

[Nevada Ed]

BH209 is said to not build up..........
and the 14th shot is as easy to shove down the barrel as the first loading.

Their site also stated that it will not rust the barrel due to its makeup........
unlike the others from Hodgdon, and the low smoke cloud is a plus if you want it.

You can pay less for powder if you like to play in hot water and soap for a while.
Most at our range want the "Cheap Powder" in able to buy more supplies.

 

[AveragEd]

I have been able to do some more research on the powder and have come to the conclusion that all the corrosion warnings on the label are more of a liability cover-their-corporate-backside statement than reality. I bought a bottle of it today but due to high winds and cold temps forecast for this area over the next four days or so and my part-tine work schedule, test-firing will have to wait until the latter part of next week.

I stopped in at a black powder-only shop near Chambersburg for some items including Blackhorn 209 but they didn't have any. They called a friend who has a similar shop 100 miles away; he had none and couldn't say when he would get another order. Just on a whim, I went to the Gander Mountain across the road and found four bottles on the shelf!

Ed

 

[webfarmer]

I have some years of experience with BH209 and it's always positive. Almost forever shelf life, more accurate than pellets (yes - compared) and very clean shooting. For the life of me, I can't say I've encountered your scenario. Usually, one shot at a deer is the end of my hunting season. I do know that a couple times I shot the muzzy and didn't clean it for a couple days. No rust or issues. The only thing is it takes second place to pellets for ease of use. But for accuracy, blows 777 and pyrodex pellets away.

My load is 90 grains behind a Barnes 250 TEZ for (on good days) 0.675" groups or better at 100 yards at 1,805 ave. FPS). Don't know why people tend to shoot 100, 120 or 130 grain powder charges by volume. Might just be the rifle and I'm lucky. Wait - my buddy's rifle shoots even better groups than mine with 90 grains. Kills deer dead too LOL. Anyway, it's good stuff and I bet you'll like it with the right bullet in front. BTW, Good luck!

 

[AveragEd]

Thanks for the report! I'm not a fan of hot loads either, although I did use three pellets of Triple Se7en in my Omega because it shot its best groups that way.

So far, I've used Triple Se7en, Pyrodex and White Hots pellets and loose Triple Se7en FFg and FFFg and Pyrodex FFFg in this 700UML with 12 different bullets from 245 to 300 grains. I've only shot it with two pellets and based upon some advice from a black powder-only shop, 90 grains of loose powder. My best groups thus far are 1-3/4" with 90 grains of either Triple Se7en powder.

I have pretty much sworn off pellets altogether. I know that black powder is measured by volume but I figured that consistency is key to accuracy so I weighed ten 50-grain (by volume) pellets and found they weigh about 40 grains. But that word about is the problem, as I found them to vary from 38.5 to 41.5 grains. Multiply three grains by two or three, as in the number of pellets used, and you have a source of inaccuracy.

I'm looking forward to trying Blackhorn 209. I've heard nothing but good things about everything but its price. So far, the bullet that is most accurate in my rifle is the 295-grain Powerbelt, even though Internet muzzleloader guru Randy Wakefield claims they are garbage. I did get a VERY tiny one-hole 100-yard group yesterday with two pellets of White Hots and the Remington/Barnes 250-grain AccuTip bullet but a second group fired to "prove" that result went two inches. Maybe that pellet weight variance was the cultprit and I just got two perfect pellets the first time.

Loose powder isn't the hassle I thought it would be before I tried it two months ago. Pre-measured charges carried in the small plastic vials sold for that purpose make it only slightly less convenient than pellets.

Ed

 

[TAROMAN]

After reading the article in HANDLOADER, tried it in 44 Magnum.
Very accurate loads, and cleanup wasn't too bad with MPro 7.
Brass, I just threw away.

 

[rsrocket1]

After reading the article in HANDLOADER, tried it in 44 Magnum.
Very accurate loads, and cleanup wasn't too bad with MPro 7.
Brass, I just threw away.

Aw shucks, you didn't need to throw away the brass. All you need to do is to clean the inside with a brass brush and a cordless drill. You may not even need any solvent. Straight walled brass is easy to clean out. Bottle neck brass is the tough stuff.

 

[webfarmer]

So far, the bullet that is most accurate in my rifle is the 295-grain Powerbelt, even though Internet muzzleloader guru Randy Wakefield claims they are garbage.
Ed

I've heard the same thing so never tried them. It's my understanding they are very accurate but NOT the best choice on game. A bullet has to dance to several tunes in it's short career so that's why I chose Barnes. Of course, I'm not shooting your rifle so my data is based on my Bone Collector. I do know the 250's grouped better than the 290's in my rifle. Good luck on your quest!

 

[AveragEd]

As far as I could read into his emails, Wakefield didn't indicate he was basing his opinion of Powerbelts on anything but accuracy. But they advertise themselves as the largest selling ML bullet and according to the area shops that sell muzzleloading supplies, that's true. They all stock more different powerbelts than any other bullet brand and I wouldn't think that sales of them would be that good if they didn't perform well on game.

If you haven't seen it yet, Federal just released their new Trophy Copper ML bullet. I has a unique design that makes the sabot a permanent part of the bullet and a plastic base that pushes what amounts the their sabot forward under gas pressure. That in turn forces the "sabot" outward against the bore using two ramp-like areas on the bullet. They weigh 270 grains, a nice middle-ground weight, and they shot really close to the Powerbelts as far as accuracy goes in my gun.

Ed

 

[gmiller0737]

I shoot Blackhorn 209 in Both a .50 Caliber T/C Impact & a Older Gonic Arms GA-90 .45 Barrel for a T/C Contender Carbine I have had zero issues, In both Guns I shoot the Hornady SST Bullets,I understand That a Hot Primer is recomended by the folks @ B.H 209 & They Recomend using either a Federal #209A or The CCI 209M I have used both of those & had great results,No issues with corrosion so far, I use the Blackhorn 209 cleaning solvent very little fouling compared to Pyrodex.

 

[webfarmer]

I shoot Blackhorn 209 in Both a .50 Caliber T/C Impact & a Older Gonic Arms GA-90 .45 Barrel for a T/C Contender Carbine I have had zero issues, In both Guns I shoot the Hornady SST Bullets,I understand That a Hot Primer is recomended by the folks @ B.H 209 & They Recomend using either a Federal #209A or The CCI 209M I have used both of those & had great results,No issues with corrosion so far, I use the Blackhorn 209 cleaning solvent very little fouling compared to Pyrodex.

It's timely you mention Blackhorn's recommendation of magnum primers. I contacted them yesterday asking what their website means when they say to use standard 209 primers but indicate the magnum version. I don't get it. They responded and the answer didn't make sense to me so I re-asked them the question - only better written.

I've never even once used a magnum primer in my TC Triumph and every pull of the trigger goes boom and accurately. Hoping for a clear answer from them tomorrow. I'm sure mag 209's work well but I gotta know LOL

 

[webfarmer]

If you haven't seen it yet, Federal just released their new Trophy Copper ML bullet. I has a unique design that makes the sabot a permanent part of the bullet and a plastic base that pushes what amounts the their sabot forward under gas pressure. That in turn forces the "sabot" outward against the bore using two ramp-like areas on the bullet. They weigh 270 grains, a nice middle-ground weight, and they shot really close to the Powerbelts as far as accuracy goes in my gun.

Ed

Yeah, I recently saw them in a "what's new" column. Certainly going to try them - hoping to see how they perform on game. It doesn't pay to buy lots of anything anymore because technology will get you every time.

 

[rsrocket1]

Webfarmer,
Magnum primers are not required, nor is the special BH209 breechplug although both couldn't hurt. What is important is that BH209 is loaded snug against the breech plug and that you have a fully leak free path from the flash hole back through the primer and to the firing pin face of the primer. If the primer fits loosey, the primer flash will not be directed fully into the powder. That will sometimes cause misfires. The Winchester 209 primer is one of the best primers for this because it is a tiny bit longer (by a mil or two) than most other primers on the market. I use W209, CCI209M and Federal 209A's all successfully with BH209. The only reason I use these is because that's what I use for shotshell loading and I load 3/4 oz 12 gauge for skeet shooting and low pressure is the enemy of light payload reloading and the CCI209M and F209A are the hottest primers around. What you don't want are the primers meant for some of the black powder substitutes like the triple seven primers. They burn cooler than usual because powders like 777 sometime leave a "crud ring" when standard 209 primers are used.

OP, for your 700, you should already have a nice gas tight system so BH209 ignition shouldn't be a problem.

 

[AveragEd]

Yes, the primed cases fit so tightly to the breech plug that the interiors of the cases only have a slight dark coloring after several firings.

I used nothing but Federal 209A primers in my Omega with Triple Se7en or Pyrodex because I wanted a hotter flame. I used only Remington 209Ps in my trap loads (and still have 5,300 of them left) but since they are one of the mildest 209s available, I thought the Federals, regarded as one of the hottest, might be a better choice.

Ed