Self Defense Aim/Fire Stance

dben002

dben002

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Anyone here (other than me) think that in a self defense situation that if you have to "find your sights" you are probably dead?

I have been practicing self defense point and shoot with the weapon at chest height and extended for about 2 years now and am becoming rather adept at placing all shots within the scoring section of a target from 5 to 15 yards.

It is rather amazing what your brain does if you just point your finger at an object without thinking about it.

No they are not aimed percision shots to a bullseye but this method of firing gets the job done.

Thoughts anyone??
 
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In a self defense situation, up close and personal, you'll never use your sights. If you have time and distance you might but perfecting your point shooting abilities is pretty much mandatory if you're under close quarters attack. The thing is that if you are adept at using your sights and hitting things at distance you should have no problem in 20 feet or so of hitting a man sized target by point shooting.

I didn't know how good I was at it until I took a close quarters pistol craft class and never missed a center of mass body shot all day with both a Hi-Power and a 4" 686+.

Thus my conclusion - an adept shooter can always do this and should practice it, too!
 
Your 'discovery' is spot on. Practice point shooting out to the distance for you that it no longer makes any sense on which to rely. The 'Always shoot for utmost accuracy crowd' seems to think that a handgun is worthless unless the shot is carefully taken with the proper stance, grip, trigger press and sight alignment with a perfect Isosceles or Weaver stance. All that can and will get you killed in the wrong situation.

I was an experienced IPSC shooter of some skill when I became a LEO. After a few field experiences I realized that the muscle memories that I was building in IPSC target shooting could get me killed. I stopped competing immediately. .......
 
I disagree with not using the front sight.

I'd you have properly developed your presentation (drawing from the leather) the pistol comes up with sights on the target.

Problem is that most folks won't put in the work to develop the skill.
 
Point shoot or use your sights?
The flash sight picture is the best of both worlds.
Some classroom instruction and about 50 rounds on the range and
most students have got it. But we need to be versatile depending on
distance. I like the speed rock for real close, the flash sight picture for
intermediate, and the sights for longer distance. Find out what works
for you and do that.
 
I use the Isosceles stance for there is IIIa body armor that protects me from calibers up to and including .44 Magnum.
 
I use the Weaver stance. I'd rather use a more athletic fighting stance for greater balance and stability. Isocceles might be better for at the range or if wearing body armor. But in a defensive situation without body armor I will always go with Weaver. I also practice point and shooting but will always attempt to put that front sight where I want the round to go.
 
I point at targets up to five meters away, but I use my sights for beyond five meters. My point shooting works up close.
 
I'm not sure what body armor has to do with point shooting but the reason you really need to be able to point shoot is because you literally might not be able to get that presentation accomplished the way they taught you in class and the way you practiced it at the range, if you did practice it. Using your front sight in a combat situation is great when there is time but when Jim the Perpetrator is running at you with a knife you need to be able to hit him with a round NOW! Getting that proper presentation accomplished with the front sight on the target is problematic when the adrenaline hits hard. If you slow him up then you can aim and take a second shot.

Further, you might not even get to use both hands. Unless you're a skillful one-handed shooter (many cowboy action shooters are very adept at this because we shoot that way in competition) you're not going to be very used to the way it feels and you will need to get that first shot off quickly. Find your front sight later.

YMMV
 
I wholeheartedly believe that non-proactive defensive shooting(and training) is/should be threat focused shooting. I think available research supports this concept and lessons from FoF/Force on Force training reinforce it.

There is a degree of confusion due to differences in definitions of the various methods. Massad Ayoob was asked about unsighted vs aimed fired and he makes a very good point...

"As you know, this is a hotly debated topic. I agree with the late Dave Arnold of Guns & Ammo magazine that a lot of the debate would be cleared up if everyone used the same terminology. Some people consider anything but the conventional sight picture from the marksmanship manual, applied with primary focus on the front sight, to be "point shooting." To me, it's only point shooting if I can't see the gun and its relationship to the target at all; if I can see the gun superimposed over the target, I consider it some degree of aimed fire, ranging from coarse to precise."

The first couple of minutes of this video really sums it up for me.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_AbAfZtTpk[/ame]
 
The body armor point was in regards to stance. As the comment above mine mentioned using isosceles because he wants his armor to face the threat.
 
Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

In a close range self defense situation, one's focus should be on the attacker. So I use a target-focused approach with shooting. Whenever possible I try to get my gun in my line of sight while focusing on the target, even if I'm not using the sights. That at least allows me to get a rough visual index on the target. Even at longer distances, say up to 10 yards or so, I can get decent hits by looking "through" the sights while focusing on the target, if that makes sense.

I don't like thinking in terms of "shooting stance." To me that always makes it sound static, when one should be moving if at all possible in a self defense situation ("get off the X," interfere with your attacker's OODA loop, get to cover, etc.). It may sound "tacticool" but I like the idea of a shooting "platform," where the focus is from the waist up, thus allowing your legs and feet to move as needed. I tend to use more of an Isoceles platform with my arms when shooting two-handed since that is consistent with one's natural response to an attack. I don't have the source but I remember reading that even in situations where police officers trained exclusively using Weaver more often than not they ended up using more of Isoceles in actual shootings.

If you haven't seen this video (it's actually just audio, but still worth it), I'd highly recommend you watch it. It's an interview that Massad Ayoob did with Bob Stasch, a Chicago police officer who survived 14 gunfights. It's about an hour long.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI[/ame]
 
Amen on the thoughts on terminology. Beyond arms length, there MUST be some visual reference between firearm and target. Might not be a text book sight picture ( top of front sight level with the rear sight and equal light on both sides SIR!) but there must be some reference.

I'd also be real careful about what's posted regarding use of sights. Should one be involved in a shooting and hit a bystander, posts claiming that sights one doesn't need sights or are un-necessary could come back to haunt you..
 
WR Moore said:
....
I'd also be real careful about what's posted regarding use of sights. Should one be involved in a shooting and hit a bystander, posts claiming that sights one doesn't need sights or are un-necessary could come back to haunt you..
Click to expand...

Took a tactical class given by a local swat guy. His position was "You always aim directly at your target, but you may not always use your sights to do it."
 
Visually, I ride the front sight when shooting fast. I can see it move as I'm looking over the top of the gun. As I continue firing, the sight picture completes, but I have no recollection of what the rear sight is doing. I'm only aware of the muzzle and front sight movement, and the muzzle smoke from firing. I can see the target a little more clearly than when I'm slow-firing with a proper front sight focus.

Generally, I'm firing around three rounds a second--not bad, not GM-level, either.

Shots are, without exception, inside the scoring rings of an NRA B-2 or B-3 (7.5-8 inches) at 7 yards. Which is about what I'm capable of with the same gun and target slow firing at 25 yards.
 
dben002 said:
Anyone here (other than me) think that in a self defense situation that if you have to "find your sights" you are probably dead?

I have been practicing self defense point and shoot with the weapon at chest height and extended for about 2 years now and am becoming rather adept at placing all shots within the scoring section of a target from 5 to 15 yards.

It is rather amazing what your brain does if you just point your finger at an object without thinking about it.


No they are not aimed percision shots to a bullseye but this method of firing gets the job done.

Thoughts anyone??
Click to expand...

Doing it reflexively is the right thing, for your brain is going to be concentrating on the threat.
 
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