Serious court + warranty question on reloads

[JJEH]

Guys,

I think about to start reloading. My wife was talking to 1SG one day and they also came across guns and reloading. 1SG does not reload because;

1. It is a "pain" if somebody gets shot with it. They can presume you created a hotter, more powerful load on purpose to hurt the person more or even kill the person. Because you cannot proof what exact components you did use for the particular load. (not exactly his words, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say...)

2. It voids the warranty on new firearms.

Here is a statement from my other reload thread;
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/248623-reloding-9mm-40s-w-make-sense.html

And the court thing is an Internet myth.

A former coroner from the State of Illinois was on this forum not long ago and said that over his decades of experience and hundreds of gunshot investigations not once was he asked to try and determine if the bullet was "factory". He stated that he had not heard of any such evidence being introduced into court. He also said that he could not envision any way this could be accomplished. I have done a lot of searching myself (not that this qualifies me as any sort of expert) and have yet to find one case anywhere, anytime that the question was raised. Mas Ayoob is the perpetrator of this hogwash and while he may be the ultimate "Tacticool Dude", he doesn't walk on water.

So what is fact and what is fiction now? We have 2012 and laws/regulations can change like people change underwear and socks... (well, I assume/hope they all do it on a daily basis )

Please stick to facts if possible. I appreciate you.

 

[JBnTx]

I think the use of reloaded ammo would be the least of your worries if you were involved in a shooting.

The policy of "reloads voiding a firearms warranty" is based more on limiting the gun makers legal liability for damage or injury,
rather than any danger of reloads damaging a firearm.

Anyway, how would a gun manufacturer know you used reloads?

..

 

[Rule3]

Who is 1SG??


The use of reloads in a SD situation has been beat to death and then beat to death some more. There are over a gazillion threads on it.

I do believe the general consensus is that there is no one who has been able to cite a case law where the use of reloads convicted the person of wrong doing.

As to warranty, if you blow your gun up with reloads the manufacturer is not going to honor the warranty. Why should they? That's why they state so in the warranty. If you jam a hot load in xyz gun it's your fault not the guns. If it is a factory load and something happens then you can file against them. (maybe and good luck)

 

[glowe]

If I were you, I would never start reloading, but don't forget to pick up your brass and neatly place it back in the original box. Then put it on the shooting bench as you leave and let me know where you shoot.

Honestly, I would think it makes little difference what you were chambering in your gun if you shoot someone. How would that happen in the first place? Verify your target and your surroundings. If the range is unsafe, don't shoot there.

Gun manufacturers, on the other hand, should have the right to void a warranty if shooters use the wrong ammo, or reloaded double charged ammo, etc. and blows up their gun. Since the manufacturer has no way of telling what you shot in their pistol or rifle, they would be paying money for shooter carelessness or ignorance. Of course we would have to pay for those claims in higher prices of new guns.

Start reloading and enjoy the cost savings.

 

[Andy Griffith]

It only voids the warranty if you damage the firearm is some way. Reloading can be very rewarding and enjoyable if you allow it to be.

The best suggestion I can give is- go to a friend that reloads and allow him to walk you through it. There is no magical potion that someone has to drink to become a reloader and do it well- just attention to details, following written recipes and paying attention to what you are doing.

 

[EarlFH]

I don't use my reloads for SD purposes, but I can shoot alot of targets, for a lot less cost. I use only factory ammo, for my carry guns. Of course you have to be reasonably careful when you are reloading. All you have to do, is physically LOOK in your brass, after putting the powder in. If you have accidently double loaded a round, it is very obvious. NO DRUGS, OR BOOZE, before, or during reloading!!!

EarlFH

 

[ArchAngelCD]

They can presume you created a hotter, more powerful load on purpose to hurt the person more or even kill the person. Because you cannot proof what exact components you did use for the particular load. (not exactly his words, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say...)

Hurt the person more? Stopping the attack usually results in the bad guy dieing if you do your job correctly. How much more hurt can they be than dead? I doubt an extra 100 fps will be noticed by the dead guy!

All the threads about the "best" SD ammo are all about hollow points doing the maximum damage so as to stop the attack quickly. It's all about hurting the bad guy before he can hurt you or your family. If they wish to be safe or unharmed they shouldn't have attacked anyone.

 

[Pigirondan]

Given all the information overload we suffer from today, shouldn't there be significant evidence of said same prosecution circumstances? I mean, how many people have gone to jail because they used reloads in a self-defense situation? For that matter, how many people have been taken to task for using +P or +P+ loads in a self-defense situation rather than standard pressure?

 

[EarlFH]

Been reloading since 1973, that's 39 years.

No blown up guns yet.

No law suits.

Guess it must be an OK hobby for adults...

That's the key word,
"ADULTS"

EarlFH

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Lots of time the forensics of shootings involve the studying of stippling patterns. They will compare those found on the body with a control from a like sample of ammo. It's easier to do this with factory ammo rather than reloads.......just sayin.....

 

[mikld]

Who is 1SG??


The use of reloads in a SD situation has been beat to death and then beat to death some more. There are over a gazillion threads on it.

I do believe the general consensus is that there is no one who has been able to cite a case law where the use of reloads convicted the person of wrong doing.

As to warranty, if you blow your gun up with reloads the manufacturer is not going to honor the warranty. Why should they? That's why they state so in the warranty. If you jam a hot load in xyz gun it's your fault not the guns. If it is a factory load and something happens then you can file against them. (maybe and good luck)

I first read about this (DAs "going after" anyone shooting reloads in a self defence situation) when I began looking at reloading forums on the web mebbe 13 years ago. I still haven't read/heard of a single case where reloader "killer ammo" was even brought up in a criminal case.

 

[Neumann]

There's no safe way to reload ammunition to the level of hot commercial self defense loads. That takes selected components, refined manufacturing methods and extensive quality control. When reloading, I pick something warm but far enough inside the maximum load to accommodate normal variations in powder delivery.

If a shooting goes to trial, the opposing attorney will seize on any fact and represent its significance in a way detrimental to your interest. That's true whether you reload or not. Any time you use a firearm in self-defense, it is considered "deadly force", and is likely to cause serious injury or death, so lethality of the load is irrelevant.

Massad Ayoob has served as an expert witness in inumerable trials. His advice is golden. What happens in a courtroom bears little resemblance to your personal reading of the law, or what appears on a forum such as this.

 

[DWalt]

I remember a SD-related court case in, I think, Utah, where a guy shot and killed someone in SD, and was prosecuted for murder. The shooter lost, because the allegation of the prosecuting attorney was that a .40 S&W is "Too Powerful" for SD, and contended that the defendent was a bloodthirsty lunatic who deserved life in prison. I also remember that after conviction, the guilty verdict was later overturned on appeal and the shooter was freed. Lesson - a prosecutor will use any allegation to convince a jury, and will be successful if all the jurors are idiots, as is often the case.

Having been called for jury duty many times, but never selected, I can attest that most jurors accepted for the trial appear to be the stupidest and least educated of the pool. That's a real problem with the legal system. Neither prosecution nor defense attorneys seem want jurors who appear to have half a brain or are capable of any independent analysis of the facts.

 

[NYlakesider]

There's no safe way to reload ammunition to the level of hot commercial self defense loads. That takes selected components, refined manufacturing methods and extensive quality control. When reloading, I pick something warm but far enough inside the maximum load to accommodate normal variations in powder delivery.

If a shooting goes to trial, the opposing attorney will seize on any fact and represent its significance in a way detrimental to your interest. That's true whether you reload or not. Any time you use a firearm in self-defense, it is considered "deadly force", and is likely to cause serious injury or death, so lethality of the load is irrelevant.

Massad Ayoob has served as an expert witness in inumerable trials. His advice is golden. What happens in a courtroom bears little resemblance to your personal reading of the law, or what appears on a forum such as this.

I used to carry reloads till many years ago Ayoob said it COULD cause a problem. Now in this crazy society we are in you even own a gun to many people you're a bad person. Carry one to them your lower than whale dodo. Actually have to shoot someone, home or out makes no difference to them YOUR BAD!. The people I described could be the DA, ADA and members of the jury.. By only using reloads for practice and only carry factory stuff, by using what the local LEOs carry you have taken away one of their ''your bad'' strategies.

 

[Pigirondan]

In my own case, I try to load some of my reloads to similar specs of my commercial* carry ammunition. Close enough is good enough for practice. On the other hand, 00 Buck is the best round IMO!

*Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure 150 grain DEWC

 

[WR Moore]

Backing up Cajunlawyer-some years back there was a case in my state where a shooting by an odd duty officer happened. Officer cited self defense and that the shooting took place at close/contact range.

The state police crime labs exempler ammo was loaded with different powder due to a production change. The result was a 'scientific' determination that the officers statement was false. He was convicted.

The verdict was overturned on appeal after the manufacturer appeared in court and testified as to the different powders used in the different lots of ammunition.

The powder you buy over the counter isn't the same as the factories used.

Say $25 buck for ammo vs $250 an hour for an attorney. Yeah, you're going to court anyway, but there's no need to add extra issues.

 

[NicholasDM]

1: If! you are forced into a position of having to shoot somebody, you want the most lethal round possible. Reloading is one way to ensure that you have that. Or you can spend $20-30 for 20 rounds of HP or other price-gouging rounds.

Remember, if you're shooting at somebody intentionally, you should be in the right mind that you are aiming to kill them. If you are only "shooting for effect", then you should not be shooting.

It doesn't matter what type of bullet was used, so long as it wasn't federally prohibited. ie: no explosive or armor piercing ammo.

2: It does not void warranties unless you damage the weapon in some way that can be proven to be a result of your reload. Even Glock doesn't void the warranty, they just recommend against firing reloads due to the unsupported nature of the chamber. In reality, most autoloading pistols have very similar unsupported areas of the chamber and while I cannot confirm this, I've read and been told that .45 weapons generally have less support than most 9mm weapons. Every single gun manufacturer will tell you not to fire reloads for CYA legal reasons and because we've become a nation of hand-held adult children who refuse to admit our own wrongs and constantly seek to blame them on something or someone else. (Obesity "epidemic", anyone? Stop eating 5 cups of sugar a day and gargling with deep fryer fat and see how much weight you lose.)

Guys,

I think about to start reloading. My wife was talking to 1SG one day and they also came across guns and reloading. 1SG does not reload because;

1. It is a "pain" if somebody gets shot with it. They can presume you created a hotter, more powerful load on purpose to hurt the person more or even kill the person. Because you cannot proof what exact components you did use for the particular load. (not exactly his words, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say...)

2. It voids the warranty on new firearms.

Here is a statement from my other reload thread;
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/248623-reloding-9mm-40s-w-make-sense.html



So what is fact and what is fiction now? We have 2012 and laws/regulations can change like people change underwear and socks... (well, I assume/hope they all do it on a daily basis )

Please stick to facts if possible. I appreciate you.

 

[NicholasDM]

OP: Should you start reloading? Yes. Absolutely, yes.

You save money on ammo (you actually do. I load 100 rounds for LESS than the retail cost of a 50 round box of 9mm). It's great stress relief and "me" time. I personally find it very satisfying and fun to do. New loads and powders are always a little stressful before you get them to the range, at least for me they are.

Dive in! Have fun! Be safe!

 

[Doug M.]

I remember a SD-related court case in, I think, Utah, where a guy shot and killed someone in SD, and was prosecuted for murder. The shooter lost, because the allegation of the prosecuting attorney was that a .40 S&W is "Too Powerful" for SD, and contended that the defendent was a bloodthirsty lunatic who deserved life in prison. I also remember that after conviction, the guilty verdict was later overturned on appeal and the shooter was freed. Lesson - a prosecutor will use any allegation to convince a jury, and will be successful if all the jurors are idiots, as is often the case.

*
A prosecutor's duty is not to obtain convictions. It is to do justice. We are constantly trained on that and reminded. I even have that RPC (Rule of Professional Conduct) as a tattoo. When I read of this sort of behavior, ore see (and I have), it angers me to an amazing extent. That argument was drivel and should have been shot down by the trial judge.

Most lawyers know jack about use of force and firearms, too. Bad mix.

 

[blujax01]

There's no safe way to reload ammunition to the level of hot commercial self defense loads. That takes selected components, refined manufacturing methods and extensive quality control. ....

Do you have any source info for that statement or is it just your opinion based on your own level of competency? Because I respectfully yet totally disagree.

I didn't bother to quote the Ayoob thing because to you "He's Golden" and there is no amount of logic that's going to move you off that point.

And I'm Still waiting for one shred of evidence of hand loaded ammo being an issue at a self defense shooting trial...,

Anyone?

Anyone?