Shill bidding on Gunbroker?

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i am okay buying a gun on Gunbroker thinking that if its a fair auction and I do not like the gun I can probably resell it and not lose more than 10%


But that only works if I am buying at market price without being bumped up by a shill

Any thoughts on whether shill bidding is common on Gunbroker?
 
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Shill bidding goes on all the time and is even less detectable in an online auction then in a brick and mortar setting. I have set ONE rule for myself and I've followed it for years. I decide the maximum amount that I will bid for an item and if the bidding exceeds that amount I let the item go. No regrets as another example will eventually come my way. This is also a major reason I buy most of my guns in face to face transactions as it IMO saves a lot of hassle and grief plus shipping,buyers premiums, taxes, and inflated descriptions regarding condition!
Jim
 
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The post above pretty much nails it.

Shill bidding is hard to prove, but is I think suspected more often than it probably occurs as most sellers are pretty honest.

Some bidders get upset when the good deal they thought they could get evaporates. But as Italiansport points out, you need to determine how much you are willing to bid, then stop there. If you do that you won't get hurt and you won't pay what you feel is too much. If every one did that shill bidding would be less common as the seller would never move the gun.

I also prefer face to face sales to on line sales when possible as it helps keep the local gun shops in business, and in some cases it keeps some shops on the lookout for firearms they know I might be interested in.

However, the advantage of on-line auctions to both buyers and sellers is that it provides place for sellers to list uncommon firearms that can then be found by buyers looking for those uncommon firearms who are willing to pay fair market value.

That's another point of contention with some buyers as in the pre-GB, GA days it was common to get some great deals on those same uncommon firearms that might not have had much local appeal. They's sit on the shelf a long time and eventually the ship owner would sell it well below market value just to be able to turn it back into money. That seldom happens any more as sellers are abel to find buyers willing to pay full market value.

Now...it's also redefined what "full market value" happens to be. If you get just 2 or 3 sellers who both want a not so common firearm bad enough, it comes down to who is willing to pay the most for it - and by definition that's a fair market sale.

That's also however where some of the accusations of "shill bidding" come into play as the other buyers will see 2 or 3 bidders driving the price up well above what those other bidders feel represents the fair market value and/or beyond what they would personally pay. But that doesn't mean it's a case of shill bidding. Demonstrating that will require a pattern of the same bidders driving up prices for the same seller, and the same seller coming back with the same firearm.

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Generally speaking, I avoid sellers who:

1) Only accept a money order. Postal money offers zero buyer protection and takes 6 weeks before the post office will even begin to investigate in the event your firearm never arrives. Then, unless you sent it certified or registered mail with a signature required and return receipt, all the post office will do is verify that the money order was cashed. A credit card protects the buyer to a much greater extent as the payment can be contested if the item is not delivered within 60 days or if the item is clearly not as described.

2) only allow a 3 to 5 day inspection period after it is delivered to the FFL, as opposed to when the customer takes delivery. The difference is that many FFLs don't log their firearms in on the same day they arrive, or only have certain staff who log them in and out.

For example, owner of one of the local gun shops here is the only person who logs firearms in, and he only does it on Saturday afternoon, and he's closed Sunday and Monday. So if a firearm arrives on Friday, it will get logged in on Saturday afternoon and IF the owner calls you same day, you've only got a couple hours to get in and pick it up, or you're waiting until Tuesday - the 5th day after delivery. If instead it arrived on Tuesday, you'll be forced to wait a full week to pick it up. So, you need to have agreement with the seller on when the inspection period starts and you need to be sure you are aware of how the receiving FFL handles incoming firearms.

3) don't post the serial number of the firearm. Some sellers won't provide the full serial number or ion some cases provide no serial number at all. The argument is that if someone sees the number they can claim it was stolen. That's not really the case unless stye can present a police report with that serial number that predates the sale, picture, etc, and generally requires they be able to establish ownership as well.

From the buyer perspective, I like to know if the same firearm keeps getting resold by the seller (an indication of shill bidding), and if the seller is worried that it might be stolen, I sure don't want to buy it.
 
As I don't frequent Gun Broker much, I've not noted what I thought may be shill or rigged bidding.
The way I avoid getting sucked up in a bidding war, is simple. If I see something I would like to have, and I never bid right off, my first bid is my last bid. Then I walk away from the auction. Win or lose, I'll find out one way or another when it's all over.
 
I am sure there is shill bidding on GB, just as there is on eBay and at any auction. I really don't worry about it much though, when an item takes off and exceeds what I want to pay I just figure that someone (or someones!) wanted it more than I did. Remember, it takes at least two bidders for an auction to work, so once you drop out if the item keeps going it means there was more than one other bidder.

Lots of good advice in the previous posts...bid what you will pay, check in at the end, maybe one or two bids more won't hurt, then on to the next one.
 
Shill bidding is one of those things where complaints and suspicions seem out of proportion to actual evidence of it happening, rather than just sour grapes about a lost bid.

Nobody owes you a deal. As others have said, decide whether you want the gun and how much you are willing to pay, and stop bidding at that price. If you can't, see a counselor about gambling addiction.

I've been on Gunbroker pretty much since it began, and while I don't exclude anything, from my perspective it's simply not a problem. And unless you happen to live in a pro-gun, gun-show and gun-shop rich area, there is no alternative to finding a wide selection of interesting guns without wasting a lot of time and gas traveling.
 
While I don't rule out shills on GB, I think there are factors that make people think there are a lot of shills. My thinking is that at most brick and mortar auctions, the number of folks who have an interest in certain items and can afford to bid is fairly small.

On GB the situation is VERY different. The items for sale can be seen by everybody interested in guns across the whole country. That greatly increases the chances of running into another bidder with very similar interests to yours. I know, it has happened to me, and after some ferreting about in the sold items I found that a particular person had one interest identical to mine. Only snag was that he/she has deeper pockets.
 
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There is not much that can be done if it cant be proven that shill bidding is taking place.The best thing to do is set a price you wont go over and stick with it.
 
I used to know a dealer that had people bid his guns up, he no longer has a store front but still does that from what I hear. I know a couple people that list guns and also have their buddies do that for them. There's enough of a pattern that it wouldn't be that hard to catch them but I doubt anyone cares enough to do so.
I bid what I am comfortable with and then forget about it.
 
The reason I think there is a lot of shilling going on is that on the auctions I've lost I am often the second to highest bidder, and the high bidder comes in at about or within the last 15 minutes.

It just seems too coincidental.

But the advice above of putting in my highest bid and walking away makes lots of sense.
 
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I've always wondered if the shill is the last bidder (i.e. the sucker didn't bite again after the last shill bump-up), how does the seller eat the final value fee and still come out ahead?
 
The dealer I knew that did this would just pay the loss and relist the gun at a later time. He used to brag about how he did it. He was more than a little bit short on integrity.
 
l always wait til the last 15 minutes to bid on GB or AA. l do this to give the high Bidder a false sense of security.. Taking him by surprise with the hope he isn't watching his bid..
 
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Lots of good advise above, and with common sense and a little caution, I wouldn't rule out GB or other sites. I have only made 9 purchases on GB, and have been verY pleased with all of them. I try to watch sellers who have a great reputation. For one thing, they will probably have the best stuff, anyway, and you feel that you can trust their integrity. Examples are our host, Lee, who runs a very classy and respected auction on GB. Also, David Carroll, who is "The Woodlawn Boys" on GB. Both of these gentlemen are highly respected, and they list great finds that you might take years locating at gun shows. I just purchased an item from the estate of a well known member of this forum, and the SWCA, which I am very happy with. I don't feel that there was anything questionable about the auction, and the item was probably better than advertised. I have also lost a lot of auctions because I follow the rule above: decide what you are willing to pay before you begin to bid. I also think it is crazy to start bidding days before the auction begins!!! Why would folks even do that? We all know when the auction is supposed to end. ????

Well, that's just my two cents worth. Stick with reputable vendors, keep your head, and have fun. Follow the rules that the previous posters gave and you should be OK.

Best Regards, Les
 
A number of years ago, I bid on a S&W 29-5 and lost out by a few dollars, the next week it was back and I amazingly lost out by the same amount to the same party, third time I got it for what I bid. I had a set my value and I guess they decided it wasn't worth the small difference.
 
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