Shipping C&R Handguns Directly To An 03FFL By USPS

[Broker57]

We have been over the topic many times of a non-FFL shipping a handgun by UPS/FedEx and their requirement to ship overnight. I have seen a lot of the creative ways people use to get around their policies and I choose not to. I have the benefit of an agreeable 01FFL so I am able to use USPS Priority Mail whenever I ship a firearm. However, I have been firm in my position of not shipping directly to a C&R license holder using the postal service. This is based on my following response to a poster in one of my "for sale" ads who said that he has a C&R license and he receives and ships USPS Priority Mail all of the time (in California, no less!) without any problems. Am I out of line with my way of thinking? I thought I would try this forum since we have so many knowledgeable members. I would love to be told that I am wrong and save $50 on shipping. Here is what I said:

Thank you for your interest. Here is where I get hung up on mailing C&R firearms (specifically handguns, not long guns) directly to a licensee by USPS (http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm).

UPSP Postal Regulation 11.1.5 Manufacturers and Dealers - Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

UPSP Postal Regulation 11.1.f: “Licensed manufacturer and licensed dealer mean, respectively, a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer of firearms, duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury”

When you refer to the ATF’s C&R Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/faq.htm), they post:

Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?
No. A collector's license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector's license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector bring the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer's license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 178.41(c)(d)]

So as I read it, you can only ship through the USPS to a dealer, and ATF regs are very specific in stating that a C&R license is not a dealer’s license. I am sure that it is very common practice to do otherwise, but until I see something definitive in writing from the Postal Service that this is legal than I am not going to put myself or the 01FFL at risk.

I appreciate that your postmaster is also fine with you shipping firearms. As I stated in a previous post, even my post office said to just put in a priority mail box and mark it “fragile”. However, a nod and a wink won’t take precedence in court over the postal regulation which states:

11.1.3 Authorized Persons - Subject to 11.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government.

Again, the ATF is quite clear on the fact that a C&R license is not a dealer’s license, and shipping through the USPS would appear to be prohibited unless you fit into one of those catagories.

I’m sorry for such a lengthy response to a simple question, but I feel I need to clarify why my position is what it is. I would welcome any verifiable documentation to the contrary, other than that “people do it all the time”. I hate to keep losing pistol sales to what seems like such a tiny sticking point, but I’m pretty resolute about not wanting to be the test case that determines the answer to this situation.

Thoughts?

 

[Broker57]

We have been over the topic many times of a non-FFL shipping a handgun by UPS/FedEx and their requirement to ship overnight. I have seen a lot of the creative ways people use to get around their policies and I choose not to. I have the benefit of an agreeable 01FFL so I am able to use USPS Priority Mail whenever I ship a firearm. However, I have been firm in my position of not shipping directly to a C&R license holder using the postal service. This is based on my following response to a poster in one of my "for sale" ads who said that he has a C&R license and he receives and ships USPS Priority Mail all of the time (in California, no less!) without any problems. Am I out of line with my way of thinking? I thought I would try this forum since we have so many knowledgeable members. I would love to be told that I am wrong and save $50 on shipping. Here is what I said:

Thank you for your interest. Here is where I get hung up on mailing C&R firearms (specifically handguns, not long guns) directly to a licensee by USPS (http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm).

UPSP Postal Regulation 11.1.5 Manufacturers and Dealers - Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

UPSP Postal Regulation 11.1.f: “Licensed manufacturer and licensed dealer mean, respectively, a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer of firearms, duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury”

When you refer to the ATF’s C&R Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/faq.htm), they post:

Does a license as a collector of curio or relic firearms authorize the collector to engage in the business of dealing in curios or relics?
No. A collector's license only enables the collector to transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, and to make disposition of curios and relics in interstate or foreign commerce, to any other licensee, for the period stated on the license. A collector's license does not authorize the collector to engage in a business required to be licensed under the Act. Therefore, if the acquisitions and dispositions of curios and relics by a collector bring the collector within the definition of a manufacturer, importer, or dealer, he shall qualify as such. A dealer's license must be obtained to engage in the business of dealing in any firearms, including curios or relics.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a)(1), 27 CFR 178.41(c)(d)]

So as I read it, you can only ship through the USPS to a dealer, and ATF regs are very specific in stating that a C&R license is not a dealer’s license. I am sure that it is very common practice to do otherwise, but until I see something definitive in writing from the Postal Service that this is legal than I am not going to put myself or the 01FFL at risk.

I appreciate that your postmaster is also fine with you shipping firearms. As I stated in a previous post, even my post office said to just put in a priority mail box and mark it “fragile”. However, a nod and a wink won’t take precedence in court over the postal regulation which states:

11.1.3 Authorized Persons - Subject to 11.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government.

Again, the ATF is quite clear on the fact that a C&R license is not a dealer’s license, and shipping through the USPS would appear to be prohibited unless you fit into one of those catagories.

I’m sorry for such a lengthy response to a simple question, but I feel I need to clarify why my position is what it is. I would welcome any verifiable documentation to the contrary, other than that “people do it all the time”. I hate to keep losing pistol sales to what seems like such a tiny sticking point, but I’m pretty resolute about not wanting to be the test case that determines the answer to this situation.

Thoughts?

 

[CelticSire]

I'd say it's hard to go wrong by following the law. Better to lose a few sales than have to spend the proceeds on legal fees.

 

[Broker57]

Wow. that was fast! I only just hit the "post now" button. Obviously you passed Evelyn Wood with flying colors

Thanks for your input. I agree.

 

[doublesharp]

Any documented cases of USPS or BATF prosecuting a dealer/seller for shipping a c&r eligible handgun to a c&r license holder?

I've heard a theory advanced that the USPS regulation should cover c&r since they have had the ATF background check. It was simply an oversight/ignorance by gun dumb reg writers.

 

[Broker57]

Not that I am aware of, but I don't want to roll the dice and become that case. Maybe the lawyers among us can respond, but I don't believe that trying to divine what the government's "intent" was in drafting legislation vs. what they have on record is a plausible defense.

One thing I didn't make clear in this thread that was in my other thread is that I did call the USPS's 800 number to try and get some clarity on this. Of course, the person I talked to was completely clueless and had no answer. They said it was up to my local Postmaster.

I then went to the Post Office that I have used for 10 years and have a PO Box at, and asked them. After thumbing through a manual the thickness of two NYC phonebooks, they basically came up with the regulations I posted above but still couldn't give me a "yes or no" answer as to legality.

The one guy I deal with on a regular basis said "just put it in a Priority Mail box, mark it 'fragile' and call it good". Sorry, but stripes make me look fat, and last month's momentary probing during my annual check-up was enough for me ...

 

[doublesharp]

Sorry, but stripes make me look fat, and last month's momentary probing during my annual check-up was enough for me ...

So who is going to make you need the soap on a rope?

It's a USPS reg, not a BATF rule, and you've already given evidence that PO don't know where they stand. Who would prosecute you? If you are qualified to hold a dealer's license, you have to be clean. They aint gonna make you bubba's roommate for shipping an old wheelgun to rburg on his c&r license.

I'd call it a calculated risk with the biggest risk coming from, perhaps, no insurance pay off if gun is lost.

 

[handejector]

I have started threads before, suggesting that people PETITION, or simply write a zillion letters to the Postmaster General, EXPLAINING the oversight- as in "poor wording".
EMPHASIZE the GAIN in revenue for the USPS that they would be taking away from UPS and FedEx- he would LIKE that....
ALL it would take is HIS order to change the Postal reg. It is NOT required that a LAW be changed.
Perhaps one of our lawyers would draft a letter we could print and mail???

CAJUN!?!?!?
HOUSTON?!?!?!
Bill the OP.

 

[Broker57]

Yea Ok, so I engaged in a little "humorous exaggeration".

I just finished crafting a lengthy response which was thoroughly researched, well-written, and included numerous references and citations along with a harmless jape or two. When I hit the "post now" button it went zinging off into cyberspace.

Lee, I apologize if this thread has been redundant. I probably should have searched this topic before posting. You have at least inspired me to write that letter you mention. I'll let you know how that goes.

Bottom line is that whenever I have asked this question I get lots of theories and cheerleading, but never any proof that it's legal.

 

[Pointman]

If you read the USPS regs, they pertain to "dealers" and not "collectors". You see no reference to collectors. So the letter of the law is about dealers whether the intent of the law was also to include collectors doesn't matter in the courts. I am not a lawyer but I do try to exercise common sense and good judgement. Bottomline, us collectors cannot legally use USPS to ship handguns (unless antiques). A potential felony charge looms. It is not worth risking having all your guns and license confiscated. I know, there are those who say never happen but since it is a law it CAN happen.

 

[jeremyws1]

Originally posted by handejector:
I have started threads before, suggesting that people PETITION, or simply write a zillion letters to the Postmaster General, EXPLAINING the oversight- as in "poor wording".
EMPHASIZE the GAIN in revenue for the USPS that they would be taking away from UPS and FedEx- he would LIKE that....
ALL it would take is HIS order to change the Postal reg. It is NOT required that a LAW be changed.
Perhaps one of our lawyers would draft a letter we could print and mail???

CAJUN!?!?!?
HOUSTON?!?!?!
Bill the OP.

This topic would make a great sticky. I sent a letter before, and I'll gladly do it again.

 

[Broker57]

Pointman, you summed up my feelings exactly. And Jeremy, count me in as I definitely plan on writing as well. I suggested to the party on the other forum who told me that I was reading too much into the regs and have gone past the purpose of what a C&R is intended for that he should do the same. He also indicated that "after 20 years of a C&R this was a first".

As I told him, after all of these years I have never gotten myself into trouble by being overly cautious. And all you have to do is read the paper or listen to the radio these days to realize that we're living in a world of firsts

 

[MKT]

Broker,

If this C&R holder you are discussing actually is in California he/she should know that CA law requires all C&R handguns be shipped to an 01FFL, not directly to the C&R licensee. Yes, CA found a way to make a few extra dollars off the C&R licenses...that is why I usually buy mine when out of state, then I just carry them back withme. No 01FFL required for that.

 

[Broker57]

I usually buy mine when out of state, then I just carry them back with me. No 01FFL required for that.

Well then that is one area where CA is ahead of MI. If I buy a gun from out of state I have to have it shipped back to an 01FFL and then pick it up from him.

Yes, this person definitely is in CA. I did some research on shipping to CA since I have recently found out that you need to have an approval number from the CADOJ to ship TO an FFL. According to the CFLC FAQ I read it said that 03 licensees are exempt. So I did take that to mean that he could receive shipments directly. I was suprised when he said he usually banters with his postmaster about guns when he is shipping, unless the postmaster thinks he has an 01FFL.

 

[J. Galt]

Bottom line is that whenever I have asked this question I get lots of theories and cheerleading, but never any proof that it's legal.

That is because it is against Post Office regulations. Heck, even 01 FFL's have to have a form 1508 on file with the Post Office to mail handguns, why would an 03 FFL think they would get away easier?

 

[MKT]

I *think* what the law is exempting from the Authorixation number are the C&R license holder who are shipping into the state. Only 01FFL/dealers are required to be authorized. Private citizens are also exempt from obtaining an authorization, but finding an 01FFL here who is willing to accept shipment from a non-FFL is difficult.

I should have also specified in my statement about buying out of state that I was referring to C&R handguns. Non C&R I'd have to have shipped to an 01FFL.

 

[Broker57]

J. Galt, I think that the guy is more irate that I won't ship to him, not that I'm pointing out that his shipping out might be suspect.

MKT, I follow that now. I thought they were referring to CA residents, not those shipping to them.

Overall I still feel pretty vindicated for my point of view.

 

[zoom6zoom]

The best solution would be if the PO would change the wording to "FFL" instead of "dealer".

I've received Priority Mail shipments directly from 01FFL's, which did surprise me.

 

[deadin]

I've received Priority Mail shipments directly from 01FFL's

No kidding! The sending FFL01 is putting him/herself in jeopardy. I have a PS 1508 (The form required by the PO to mail handguns)sitting in front of me and
He/she supposedly signed the following statement:
"This form can only be used by manufacturers or dealers of firearms."

"The undersigned is a manufacturer or bona fide dealer therein, and the parcels presented for mailing herewith are customary trade shipments or other articles for repair or replacement of parts. To the best of my knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein."

Pretty clear to me, but I guess if they want to chance it with a Postal Inspector, it's their problem. Of course, the gun in question would probably be confiscated as evidence and the buyer would never see it.

 

[Guest]

There is NO "Intelligence Test" required for an 01FFL and not even a "Knowledge Test" and that's why many FFL holders end up making mistakes. But, the FFL holder is required to sign a statement that they have read the Laws and understand them, before their FFL is issued. That's how the BATFE has won a number of their Cases against FFL holders. The FFL holder who knowingly violates the Laws are the ones the BATFE goes after and has little difficultly getting a conviction against.

Dean is completely correct. The Laws and the Postal Form are very clear on this matter. Just because a Postal worker doesn't know the Laws and lets something go through doesn't make it right. He/she might even be working with the BATFE as part of a 'Sting' operation. It has happened before and it'll happen again.