Shooting .38Spl+P. Hot or Harmless?

[Doug.38PR]

It's been pretty well established in most circles of .38 Spl. shooters on and offline that the .38 Spl.+P is safe to shoot in reputable S&W revolvers made past 1956 and Colt revolvers made past 1931 (although the factory today officially considers prewar guns to be off limits to +P). The consensus even among shooters of guns made prior to the above said dates is: "Yes it is SAFE to shoot."
Beyond that there seems to be some disagreement with what is HEALTHY for the gun.
Many say (particularly in prewar guns or 1945 and back)that "yes your gun will handle +P but don't give it a steady diet."
Other's say, with FIRM confidence and even claimed firsthand longterm experience, that +P's are NOT hot loads at all and you can pretty much put as many as you want through the gun and the gun will stay firm and true even for your grandchildren to shoot.
Some even say some +P+ (a relative pressure term I understand)rounds or hot handloads handle fine in even prewar guns......or even airweight guns like the S&W M-37 or the Colt Agent. In fact, I recall in Ed Lovette's book "The Snubby" showing pictures and discussing use of the +P+ LSWCHP .38 round like pass the salt.

On the other hand, I've seen pictures of Colt Agents, Cobras and I think even steel frame Detective Specials blown to pieces in Jerry Kuhnhusen's book Colt DA Revolvers a Shop Manual Vol. 1 from shooting +P+ ammo.

I personally saw a S&W Chief's Special/M36 laying in a box blown to pieces from "firing Blazer Ammo" (I would say reloaded blazer ammo...but the gun was blown up regardless of what brand)

 

[Doug.38PR]

It's been pretty well established in most circles of .38 Spl. shooters on and offline that the .38 Spl.+P is safe to shoot in reputable S&W revolvers made past 1956 and Colt revolvers made past 1931 (although the factory today officially considers prewar guns to be off limits to +P). The consensus even among shooters of guns made prior to the above said dates is: "Yes it is SAFE to shoot."
Beyond that there seems to be some disagreement with what is HEALTHY for the gun.
Many say (particularly in prewar guns or 1945 and back)that "yes your gun will handle +P but don't give it a steady diet."
Other's say, with FIRM confidence and even claimed firsthand longterm experience, that +P's are NOT hot loads at all and you can pretty much put as many as you want through the gun and the gun will stay firm and true even for your grandchildren to shoot.
Some even say some +P+ (a relative pressure term I understand)rounds or hot handloads handle fine in even prewar guns......or even airweight guns like the S&W M-37 or the Colt Agent. In fact, I recall in Ed Lovette's book "The Snubby" showing pictures and discussing use of the +P+ LSWCHP .38 round like pass the salt.

On the other hand, I've seen pictures of Colt Agents, Cobras and I think even steel frame Detective Specials blown to pieces in Jerry Kuhnhusen's book Colt DA Revolvers a Shop Manual Vol. 1 from shooting +P+ ammo.

I personally saw a S&W Chief's Special/M36 laying in a box blown to pieces from "firing Blazer Ammo" (I would say reloaded blazer ammo...but the gun was blown up regardless of what brand)

 

[Texas Star]

Blazer ammo, the aluminum case sort, isn't reloadable. I read recently they now have a brass case version. ??

If a M-36 blew up while firing Blazer, it may have previously been strained with something else, hot handloads, maybe.

T-Star

 

[dogngun]

I shoot the Blazer brass case ammo all the time and I don't believe it's hot at all...if it was .38 spl ammo, Blazer is standard velocity lrn ammo, not even +P.
Texas Star is right-that Chief must have been on it's last legs for it to blow.
I have used +P .38 spl in a very old Smith, but for carry use when it was the only handgun I owned. I seriously doubt the small pressure difference would cause any significant increase in wear to an older revolver in good working condition.
I have never used +P+... Don't see a reason for it.
I'd go right to .357 magnum.

Mark

FWIW, I checked the Blazer site for this information on their .38 spl ammo:
Aluminum case

at the muzzle)
standard velocity LRN- 755fps 200ft/lbs
+P 125 JHP - 945fps 248 ft/lbs
+P 158 TMJ - 850fps 253 ft/lbs
Brass case:
Standard 125 FN FMJ- 865fps 200ft/lbs

I don't feel any of this would "blow up" any quality revolver in good condition.

 

[Art Doc]

A topic much discussed and never to be resolved. Opinions vary.

In my experience and by virtue of actual observation current factory +P is not a warm load. It is loaded well below industry maximum pressure for the caliber and I don't believe any company would sell ammo that was dangerous or harmful in a quality made gun.

The +P+ is another matter as there is no standard so any sort of chamber pressure may be encountered with ammo marked +P+ and you never know what you are getting.

 

[Doug.38PR]

so why does the factory say no +P before 1956? Colt says no +P before 1945? (their old ads say all their prewar guns are rated for the old .38/44 round)

 

[Art Doc]

On advice of counsel. Nobody wants to be sued so they draw an arbitrary line and say don't.

The last S&W made in 1955 is absolutely no different in design or strength than the first one made in 1956. Same with a 1930/31 Colt. They have to pick a date. Actually, the Colt date makes more sense as steel tempering was less exact until the 1930s.

 

[geoff40]

The models made before WW2 were being made with state of the art metal technology of the time. The metal and hardening of those guns exceeded industry standards for what was then considered maximum pressure. +P did not exist back then. Metals today are much better and tougher, and the model 10 of today is a very different gun just with materials it is made out of then a model 10 was 45 years ago, or before then with a prewar M&P. I think there is at least some truth in what is said about not using +P in old 38 special guns, or that the use of them should be only very occasionally. The whole truth of the matter, I suspect contains some of both sides of this argument.
If you have a prewar 38, and shoot it, as I do along with many of the members here, why subject it through the rigors of +P or +P+ at all? Parts are getting harder to find, and more expensive when you find them. Standard velocity still works just fine, and will defend your life every bit as good as it ever did, especially with SWC ammo. Just the same as standard velocity 22LR is every bit as good as the high velocity stuff is, it kills small game just as dead.
As Erich says, shot placement is key.

 

[Doug.38PR]

With the exception of the barrel (now made in only heavy) the internal firing pin and the stupid lock, the parts for the M-10 are the same as they were when the gun was built right?

 

[geoff40]

I am not sure what gun you refer to when you say when the gun was built, and the answer is no, not exactly the same. An M&P of the 1950s along with all model 10s all have the short action, while the older guns have the long action, and the lockwork parts of the 2 guns are not the same. Also, there are often several versions of things like hammers, which in some cases you could have a 50 year old gun with a 20 year old hammer on it, which is not the period correct hammer, for a made up, simplified example. The 38 on a K frame was introduced in 1899 I believe, the 38 special was originally a black powder cartridge, and there are a lot of variations of the gun (M&P/model 10) over the years, including several changes to the internal parts (the lockworks). There are changes to the construction of the cylinder/ejector assembly too.

 

[Doug.38PR]

when I said "when the gun was made" was refering to the M&P/M-10 design in general, as you said it was 1899. I apologize for my lack of clarity.

That answer pretty much answers my question.

However, are the all M-10/M&P guns from 1950 forward basically the same internally? (save the lock, internal firing pin)

 

[geoff40]

For a while after the end of WW2, they were producing guns made on prewar frames. I am not the one who can answer when the change over to post war frames was completed, 47? 48? 49? As late as 1950?, or such things like "are there short action M&Ps built on prewar frames?", but others here will know the answer. I think, by 1950, they were using all post war frames and the guns were all short action, and had been for a couple of years, but I am not positive. In the late 50s the ejector rod threading was changed from a right twist to a left (or verse visa). But I think besides that, and overall, the answer would be yes, they are basically the same, up until the MIM guns, with the locks and when frame mounted firing pins emerged.

 

[Muley Gil]

IIRC, +P+ ammo was introduced for a Federal agency (Treasury I think) back in the 1970s and was supposed to be fired in revolvers chambered for .357 ONLY. It was supposed to be close to .357 pressures, but without the dreaded non PC "magnum" name. As far as I know, there have never been any standardized pressures established for +P+ ammo.