Shooting while moving training.

[Mister X]

The only people I have seen shot in that shooting style shown in the video is innocent bystanders.

Even if you manage to get a hit while moving, and shooting that style it will most likely NOT stop the attack. An attacker can still attack for several seconds even when the heart is completely destroyed. It will take a head shot, pelvis shot, or spine shot. Chances are extremely low for a hit, let alone a CNS hit. IMO the training is in how to spend your money with the least results.

So, Pincus and Suarez are incompetent trainers according to you?

What is your general plan against a blade at 5 yards or less?

I think I probably stress the need for ECQ and unarmed skills more than anyone else on here, but I would much rather go hands on against a knifer that has a few bullet holes in him rather than engage unarmed from the get-go, although that too is a likely possibility if we're talking extreme close-quarters.

 

[Walkingwolf]

So, Pincus and Suarez are incompetent trainers according to you?

What is your general plan against a blade at 5 yards or less?

I think I probably stress the need for ECQ and unarmed skills more than anyone else on here, but I would much rather go hands on against a knifer that has a few bullet holes in him rather than engage unarmed from the get-go, although that too is a likely possibility if we're talking extreme close-quarters.

You can use that if you want, they are trying to make a buck anyway they can. At my age I know of hundreds of real life encounters by people with knives. And they all handled them better than his advice. I stick to what is well known to work, not sudo tactical suicide training.

My older brother at age 18 worked for a small grocery store. He had a friend who got mad over a girl, and came in the store with a knife. No tactikewl training, just a empty glass two liter bottle ended the threat. The knife holder did take a trip to the hospital though with a concussion.

Almost forgot about this one. A family friend a veteran police officer almost got into trouble because of domestic abuse call. They kept arguing no matter how much he tried to deescalate, eventually the boyfriend grabbed a knife. The officer clocked him with the Motorola portable, those things were big back then. Attack stopped, but boyfriend went to hospital with a severe concussion. Officer got accused of using too much force, but he was still alive. There was no place to run, and shoot in the small kitchen of the house.

You better have more than one tactic if you plan on getting in a knife fight.

I ask again about the cart, do you get one, and when, even if picking up one item? If you are buying several cans of vegetables do they go in the bottom of the cart, or do you put a few in the top basket? I ask this is because these are some of the items that have been used for self defense. How seriously do you take your situational awareness. Or do you just watch tactikewl videos, and a couple times a year go to tactikewl training courses?

Smart choices, and situational awareness go a lot farther than voodoo training. Situational awareness is an everyday thing, every single waking minute. The best survived attack is the one that never takes place.

 

[blues7]

So, Pincus and Suarez are incompetent trainers according to you?

They wouldn't be my first choice were I in the market but I'll defer to others with more recent (privately offered) training than my own which was obtained on the job as an agent and while on our SRT team via SWAT schools and cross training with other domestic and foreign LE and military teams.

 

[Ziggy2525]

They wouldn't be my first choice were I in the market but I'll defer to others with more recent (privately offered) training than my own which was obtained on the job as an agent and while on our SRT team via SWAT schools and cross training with other domestic and foreign LE and military teams.

Good learning opportunity. With your background, what approach would you suggest for a civilian CCW encounter with a knife wielding attacker at 3 to 5 yards.

 

[Mister X]

You can use that if you want, they are trying to make a buck anyway they can. At my age I know of hundreds of real life encounters by people with knives. And they all handled them better than his advice. I stick to what is well known to work, not sudo tactical suicide training.

My older brother at age 18 worked for a small grocery store. He had a friend who got mad over a girl, and came in the store with a knife. No tactikewl training, just a empty glass two liter bottle ended the threat. The knife holder did take a trip to the hospital though with a concussion.

Almost forgot about this one. A family friend a veteran police officer almost got into trouble because of domestic abuse call. They kept arguing no matter how much he tried to deescalate, eventually the boyfriend grabbed a knife. The officer clocked him with the Motorola portable, those things were big back then. Attack stopped, but boyfriend went to hospital with a severe concussion. Officer got accused of using too much force, but he was still alive. There was no place to run, and shoot in the small kitchen of the house.

You better have more than one tactic if you plan on getting in a knife fight.

I ask again about the cart, do you get one, and when, even if picking up one item? If you are buying several cans of vegetables do they go in the bottom of the cart, or do you put a few in the top basket? I ask this is because these are some of the items that have been used for self defense. How seriously do you take your situational awareness. Or do you just watch tactikewl videos, and a couple times a year go to tactikewl training courses?

Smart choices, and situational awareness go a lot farther than voodoo training. Situational awareness is an everyday thing, every single waking minute. The best survived attack is the one that never takes place.

You didn't answer my question

 

[Walkingwolf]

You didn't answer mine, let me ask you another one. Do you plan on getting in a knife fight? Or would you avoid one first?

Here is the percentage from 2015 of being a victim of homicide, that is all weapons, .00488%. Now with such low odds one has to wonder what would increase those odds, or lower them. IMO that would actually be tactics that keeps one from danger in the first place. IOW using good common sense at staying safe, rather than pie in the sky tactics after not using the common sense in the first place.

 

[Mister X]

You didn't answer mine, let me ask you another one. Do you plan on getting in a knife fight? Or would you avoid one first?

About the shopping cart? You didn't specifically address it to me, but no I do not usually get a shopping cart any time I go to the store.

By not answering my question, I assume you don't have an answer. You keep criticizing and making snide remarks without offering any alternatives.

 

[blues7]

Good learning opportunity. With your background, what approach would you suggest for a civilian CCW encounter with a knife wielding attacker at 3 to 5 yards.

Not really my area of expertise and I haven't kept up with my martial arts training for many years.

Three to five yards doesn't afford a lot of reaction time. If you were startled and didn't see the attack coming, the bad guy is going to be on you before you have a reasonable chance of drawing your weapon from concealment.

(There's a big difference between running Tueller drills or being in a class where you know that you are about to engage, and walking down the road on a sunny day (or early evening) speaking to your wife when trouble jumps out unannounced from a hidden doorway or alley.)

So, if I'm surprised and it's too late to put a car or something between us I'm going to go hands on, hopefully immobilize the arm/wrist and draw my weapon for a contact shot.

If the opportunity allows for an escape or putting something between us I'd opt for that...if only for the time it would afford.

If I'm with my wife, which is probable, I can't run away but hopefully can afford her the opportunity to do so.

Honestly, I don't believe that there is a cookie cutter response as I can think of so many variables. In some I would strike, in some I would withdraw, in some I would run or seek cover. In others I would draw my firearm if time and opportunity allowed.

Not much help.

I will agree with others that mindset, combined with tactical and situational awareness provide a better opportunity of success...but success is not guaranteed.

If I were in the market for hands on training I'd contact Craig Douglas (southnarc) and / or Paul Sharp. Cecil Burch also comes to mind. These men have forgotten more about close quarters fighting than I ever knew on my best day.

 

[Mister X]

They wouldn't be my first choice were I in the market but I'll defer to others with more recent (privately offered) training than my own which was obtained on the job as an agent and while on our SRT team via SWAT schools and cross training with other domestic and foreign LE and military teams.

I wouldn't consider SWAT and Military training to be a first choice when looking to develop civilian handgun self-defense skills. I've worked a lot of them over the years and generally never found them to be exceptionally knowledgable or skilled in terms of reactive use of handguns and/or integrated unarmed combatives and the ones that were built their skills privately.

Pincus and Suarez are pretty good at what they do and extremely so certain isolated elements IMO. You can't get everything in one place, but both men offer excellent instruction in certain niches.

 

[Walkingwolf]

I wouldn't consider SWAT and Military training to be a first choice when looking to develop civilian handgun self-defense skills. I've worked a lot of them over the years and generally never found them to be exceptionally knowledgable or skilled in terms of reactive use of handguns and/or integrated unarmed combatives and the ones that were built their skills privately.

Pincus and Suarez are pretty good at what they do and extremely so certain isolated elements IMO. You can't get everything in one place, but both men offer excellent instruction in certain niches.

How many knife fights have they been in?

 

[blues7]

I wouldn't consider SWAT and Military training to be a first choice when looking to develop civilian handgun self-defense skills. I've worked a lot of them over the years and generally never found them to be exceptionally knowledgable or skilled in terms of reactive use of handguns and/or integrated unarmed combatives and the ones that were built their skills privately.

I would agree. Most of that training is based upon the types of scenarios one encounters during entries, warrants, barricaded subjects, arrests etc.

However, some years before that I competed at the AAU level in martial arts, including full contact. So, I had a pretty good background to enhance what I picked up informally growing up in NYC and the training received on the job.

 

[Ziggy2525]

... everything ...

Great answer. Thanks for replying.

 

[Walkingwolf]

About the shopping cart? You didn't specifically address it to me, but no I do not usually get a shopping cart any time I go to the store.

By not answering my question, I assume you don't have an answer. You keep criticizing and making snide remarks without offering any alternatives.

I have not made any snide remarks, you implied that I did which is not the same thing. That is why I did not answer.

Every part of every day life is an exercise in situational awareness. People just have to use it, most stops outside of law enforcement does not come from some magical training, that costs a lot of money. It comes from using their brains, their instincts, and those don't come about in classes. They are an everyday practice of mental preparedness for the worst, and hopefully that never happens. I liken it to people who have dangerous jobs, not just police officers.

Firemen look for it when they do inspections, where a problem might start. Professional truck drivers do not avoid accidents by driving by the seat of their pants. Even people who just drive cars it is no accident that some have a lifetime without accidents.

Statistics tell us that criminals are young, and outside of their vices usually very agile, and healthy compared to some of us. The statistics tell us that hitting a stationary target under stress is less than perfect. Running also takes agility, and usually the arms are used for balance. A healthy young runner is going to overtake someone easily while they are wildly shooting.

I will take using my SA to NOT get into that kind of situation over fancy tactical classes that are not realistic. Which has greater odds of survival, the attack that never happens, or the attack that does?

 

[Mister X]

Two comments. Not as any kind of expert gunfighter, but based on the simunitions FoF training I mentioned earlier.

1) When an athletic attacker was rushing us as fast as they could, the people in my course couldn't move backwards fast enough to make Rob Pincus' style work (in the class I took - 80% were active police officers or active duty military). With Pincus' approach, most of the people in the class also ended up spraying their shots and not hitting the attacker. It would be easy to try at full speed with Airsoft or paintball and see what kind of results you get.

2) In the times when Rob Pincus moved laterally, he moved in the direction of the knife and into the line of the attack. If he would have moved the other direction, away from the knife, he would have forced the attacker to shift the line of attack and given himself some space. With the targets acting as a wall, he didn't have a lot of space, but he had some.

Wow, an actual constructive comment that contributes to discussion and debate. Thank you.

At the distances involved, I don't think it really matters which direction he's moving. He's moving straight back when wanting to create separation, but he's not back-pedaling. Toes are pointed in the direction he's moving and he would not have to keep moving in a straight line. He can veer off at an oblique or perform a tactical "L" depending on how it unfolds. GOTX is a fluid concept. There are guidelines, but no set rules.

If in a confined areas such as a hallway, you would have to move straight back or maybe you are against a wall and can't move in the preferred direction you've drilled, so versatility in response is a must. In terms of the idea of always moving away from the weapon hand(even at ECQ range)a lot depends on your objective and training. In some situations I would actually prefer move to or be on the outside, so moving in a forward/circular oblique angle on the weapon side would be what I want to do.

Here's a good example of GOTX using dynamic lateral movement going both left and right....

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUvl_SGaMmc[/ame]

 

[Mister X]

I have not made any snide remarks, you implied that I did which is not the same thing. That is why I did not answer.

Every part of every day life is an exercise in situational awareness. People just have to use it, most stops outside of law enforcement does not come from some magical training, that costs a lot of money. It comes from using their brains, their instincts, and those don't come about in classes. They are an everyday practice of mental preparedness for the worst, and hopefully that never happens. I liken it to people who have dangerous jobs, not just police officers.

Firemen look for it when they do inspections, where a problem might start. Professional truck drivers do not avoid accidents by driving by the seat of their pants. Even people who just drive cars it is no accident that some have a lifetime without accidents.

Statistics tell us that criminals are young, and outside of their vices usually very agile, and healthy compared to some of us. The statistics tell us that hitting a stationary target under stress is less than perfect. Running also takes agility, and usually the arms are used for balance. A healthy young runner is going to overtake someone easily while they are wildly shooting.

I will take using my SA to NOT get into that kind of situation over fancy tactical classes that are not realistic. Which has greater odds of survival, the attack that never happens, or the attack that does?

From post #62..."How seriously do you take your situational awareness. Or do you just watch tactikewl videos and a couple of times a year go to tactkewl training courses?"

That's not a snide comment in your opinion?

Just in case...from Merriam-Webster- Snide: adjective 1.Derogatory or mocking in an indirect manner.

Who said anything about situation awareness or that it was unimportant. It's a vital component of self-defense preparedness, but it cannot be counted on. If you believe all you need is SA, why even participate in this thread, because that's not what it is about. You don't know me, so don't be so quick to think you do.

 

[blues7]

Wow, an actual constructive comment that contributes to discussion and debate. Thank you.

So, now you're the sole judge of the value of the replies in this thread. Hmmm, I thought I provided an honest unembellished response. Well, at least one person thought so which makes the effort worthwhile:

Great answer. Thanks for replying.

I don't recall reading your CV, Mr. X. Feel free to provide us mere mortals with the details. I've been remiss in studying your bonafides.

Hasta luego.

 

[Mister X]

So, now you're the sole judge of the value of the replies in this thread. Hmmm, I thought I provided an honest unembellished response. Well, at least one person thought so which makes the effort worthwhile:



I don't recall reading your CV, Mr. X. Feel free to provide us mere mortals with the details. I've been remiss in studying your bonafides.

Hasta luego.

I have no problems at all with your posts most others. My comment was directed to only a couple of posts and I didn't make that very clear. My bad.

My background is primarily in the ECQ realm and various martial arts. I've posted most of them before.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/139508585-post185.html

 

[richardw]

Do you have a link of someone demonstrating this?

For the sake of clarity For readers I mention that you are referring to mu post #50 above.

I do not have a link. I have no idea if there is a video the method. I joined the Marines in September of 1959 at the age of 17 (skipped year in grade school). In Jan 60 I was deep in infantry training. I learned the technique then. I served until Sep 1989 and retired as a Master Gunnery Seargent ( equivalent to Sgt Major). I was I the infantry for those 30 years. I practiced the technique so much during all that time thatmit became a part of me, and it still is. It is like riding a bike. You just never forget.

Today at the ripe old age of 75 I can still do it because I am in fantastic shape. I work at that. So I have never looked for a different way.

You might find a video of it be looking for Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) or Krav Maga an Israeli system. Add to the search knife fighting. I have watched part of a YouTube video on the Krav Maga knife fighting defense. Once I saw that the initial steps were what I was taught I stopped watching. But the video shows the blocking and face strike for all types of knife thrusts. It gets the idea across vet well and lends credence to what I wrote.

 

[richardw]

Just finished reading the latest posts since this afternoon. I am saddened to see how some persons have denigrated others over what they wrote. This is an excellent form and this has been an excellent thread. Can we try to keep it that way? It's certainly OK to disagree or question, but doing it with personal derision is not OK. Let's be kind when we address on another. If we do, this will continue to be a nice pace to participate.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The firearms class was two days of a seven day unarmed and armed self-defense course Peyton Quinn used to put on at RMCAT in Lake George, CO. (pretty sure Peyton aged out and retired).

I don't recall who he had teaching the pistol portion of the course. Bill Kipp taught the unarmed section.

Peyton is still around. You could probably e-mail him and ask who he was using to teach the firearms portion back in 2007.

I stand corrected . . .