Shortening .38 Special cases

[buck45]

I recently bought a 627 Pro for shooting in IPSC. Before you say it's not competitive I'm doing it because I enjoy shooting wheel guns and I can use it for several classes. Anyway, I've been shooting .38 Short Colt loads because the length of the brass clears the cylinder when ejecting. .38 Special cases are about .060 too long to clear freely. Since load data for the Short Colt is limited to say the least , I was wondering if I could trim .075 off the Special case to clear the cylinder and use normal Special or .38 Long Colt data. Any thoughts?

_______________________________________________

We must carry arms because we value our lives and those of our loved ones, because we will not be dealt with by force or threat of force, and do not live at the pleasure and discretion of the lawless. - Jeff Snyder

 

[john traveler]

I'm curious why your 627 won't completely eject fired .38 Special cases. Does it have a shortened extractor rod and barrel?

Nothing at all wrong with shortening .38 Special cases to .38 Long Colt length. That's what handlloaders do when the factory brass is not available. I used to save all my split mouth .357 brass and trim back to .38 Special length.

I would be careful to use only mild lead bullet .38 Special loads in the shortened cases though. The shortened cases are enough to bump up chamber pressures and possibly be excessive in older .38 LC guns.

What are you using to seat and crimp the .38 LC? .38 LC dies or shortened .38 Special?

 

[buck45]

I'm loading Short Colt using Lee Short Colt dies in my Lee Pro 100 press. Works pretty good but like any reloading you gotta keep your eyes open. Haven't used any Long Colt data yet. Just trying to find more alternatives in view of the component market. As for why it won't extract the Special cases clear of the cylinder that's as far as the ejector rod will move them. Nothing binding or stuck. That's just as far as it goes. Do regular 627's extract fully?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.
- Mao Tse Tung

 

[OKFC05]

Not sure what outlaw club rules you're following, but .38 short colt loads are illegal for USPSA(IPSC).

You must make at least a Power Factor of 125 (minor power) to be legal and have your score count, and that takes a mild +P in .38 Special with 158gr bullets. Multiply bullet weight in grains by speed in fps and divide by 1000.

Rule 5.6.1.1 and Appendix D.
http://www.uspsa.org/rules/200...dgunRulesindexed.pdf

USPSA Chief Range Officer (CRO)

 

[Skip Sackett]

outlaw club

I don't shoot in action shooting yet. I have shot in PPC courses locally and most of the time they "fudge" a little on the national rules. No harm there as they aren't trying to be part of the overall competition. They are just trying to get more folks into shooting and provide a little income for their club.

Our local PPC league is open to folks that bring either revolver or auto. Some of the "hard core" PPC folks wouldn't be caught dead with anything other than a wheel gun. I understand, but, the goal is to get more folks shooting.

Some have gone on to shoot in other kinds of competition and have had to follow the rules laid out for the national organization.

p.s. Buck45, welcome to the forum!

 

[buck45]

Ahoy Skip,
I stumbled onto "action shooting" last fall via Midwayusa's "Wednesday Nite at the Range" tv shows. I gotta tell you it's the most fun a normal guy can have with a gun. I'm too damn old to run with ALL the pups but I can still make most of them shake their heads when a fat old man cleans their clock in single stack 45. I try to stay within the spirit of the rules but have no delusions of going state or national. I just enjoy shooting. As a Marine ya gotta get into this game.

By the way, I'm ex-Navy Airdale. Flew off the Kearsarge and Ranger aircraft carriers in Tonkin Gulf - 65' 66' 67'. Back then we had bar fights for entertainment. Some of my most memorable were back to back with a Marine. I can't use Semper Fi because I didn't live it ... but I do understand.

 

[OKFC05]

I don't shoot in action shooting yet. I have shot in PPC courses locally

One of the HUGE differences in PPC and USPSA (aside from the fact that PPC is sanctioned by the NRA) is that there are no power requirements in PPC; just have to make a hole in the paper.

Shooting underpowered cartridges in USPSA is considered serious cheating and gets the scores tossed out. "Power, Accuracy, Speed" is the motto of USPSA.

One of the problems with clubs shooting "son of IPSC" or "almost IDPA" is when the members go to a real match and find out they've been misled, and have no clue about the rules.
I hear many complaints about IDPA and USPSA from people who have never shot a match of either, and often don't realize it.

If clubs aren't going to join the national organization and follow the rules, they should stop stealing the names: they are copyrighted.

 

[buck45]

I'm not sure where you figgered I'm shooting with an "outlaw" club 'cause I'm not. I'm a member in good standing South Florida Pistol Club based at Markam Park Shooting Range west of Ft Lauderdale and diligently adhere to the IPSC rules. The Short Colt loads are loaded to 9mm specs; i.e. 125 grain bullet at 1000 fps makes PF 125. I don't load to Short Colt specs. The only reason I use .38 Short Colt brass is the extraction length. .38 Special brass is approx .060 too long to clear the cylinder upon extraction which makes a speed reload problematic at best. My question relates to the effect length of brass has on .38 Special load data. Clear?
_______________________________________________
"The Sound of freedom is a .45 empty bouncing off the ground" ~ Rob Leatham

 

[OKFC05]

I've been shooting .38 Short Colt loads

"The Short Colt loads are loaded to 9mm specs"

Wow, is that a TOTALLY different statement!!!

According to your second statement, you are NOT shooting .38 short colt loads.

You now indicate you are putting 9mm loads into .38 short colt cases, which is legal but way over pressure limits for the .38 short case (15,000 PSI).

For the sake of keeping all your fingers and eyes, I'd really prefer you learn to tilt the revolver somewhat butt down and eject .38 special brass with a sharp whack of the thumb. Properly done, the brass comes flying out while the strong hand goes for the loader. My usual IDPA/SSR revolver is a model 66 with .38 special brass and Comp III loaders.

If your question is what happens to the pressure when you load .38 Special loads in .38 short colt brass, the answer is the pressure goes dangerously high, and you are living on the edge of blowing out the cases.
The term is "expansion ratio" and the smaller the confinement for the same load, the higher the pressure---and it is exponential, not linear.

 

[growr]

OKFC05 is right in his statement. I too use a model 66 in ICORE, IDPA and USPSA and never have a problem in ejecting the empties in the manner he described. Muzzle straight up, cylinder straight down and briskly bopping the ejector rod with my palm.
Let us know how it works for you...works for me even with .357 mag casings...
Randy

 

[buck45]

Yup, I did say Short Colt loads. I apologize - my mistake. Meant to say 9mm data in the Short Colt brass. That's how I've read others are loading for the 627 Pro. In any event I'm not trying to be under the radar and beat the rules of my game. The 125 gr bullet at 1000 fps is about max for the Short Colt brass. I'm after more versatility because of the problems with the component market. 158 gr .38 Special at 875 fps makes PF 138. No leading, gentler recoil and easier on the gun and no exotic components. I don't have enough experience to figger the implications of less case volume for a given load. Ergo my question.

 

[buck45]

Ain't happening on my 627 Pro. I've read that some shooters polish the chambers and use nickel cases to aid extraction. Do you know anything about the practice?

 

[AzShooter]

.38 Short Colt has gained popularity over the past 10 years. There wasn't much data when we started using it but if ou do a search on Brian Enos.com and look for 38 short colt there are a number of reliable loads

I like using 158 grain bullets, keeping them long so that when loaded you are not adding a crimp to the case.

If your cases are difficult to extract it has to be a pressure problem. Step down your load data. Look at the loads at BENOS.COM. There were a few cases of people having to polish their cylinders and you can do this with flitz on a patch. Run it on a drill press for 30 seconds per cylinder and you should be good to go.

3.6 grains of Unique and 3.6 grains of Red Dot both make about 130 power factor and are clean and accurate out of my guns.

 

[Skip Sackett]

OKFC,
Power factor in PPC, your comments are spot on. Too bad sometimes though. I've heard some pretty wimpy loads shot on the line! None from my guns though!

Buck,
I have an uncle that fits that description too. (He wasn't a pilot though.) Career man. Even lives in Florida! Small world.
The bar fights I was in weren't very entertaining though.

I have some friends that are pushing me to get into the action shooting stuff. I may have to give in now!

 

[OKFC05]

I've read that some shooters polish the chambers and use nickel cases to aid extraction. Do you know anything about the practice?

Less than perfect chamber polishing can cause its own problems. Might try the following first.

Here's my routine for trying to keep the extractiion easy for an extended match.
First, nickel cases for sure. Use plated or jacketed bullets to avoid greasy soot from bullet lube. Use no lube on the cases and make sure the loaded cartridges are clean and DRY.

Get a Brownells spiral steel "Tornado" chamber brush. Make sure ALL the residue is cleaned out of each chamber, and the chamber is spotlessly clean and DRY. Any trace of oil or grease will quickly turn to glue upon firing.

Empty cases should practically fall out of their own weight, and come flying out when smartly ejected.

I think AZShooter is right about you probably having a pressure problem causing over expanded cases and extraction problems.

Good luck.

If you want to really make life easier in USPSA revolver, try a model 625 full moon clip .45 ACP loaded to Major.

 

[haggis]

Depending on brand, you may find that shortened .38 Special cases have wall thicknesses that are too big, necessitating an additional step where you use a neck reamer to enlarge the case ID.

Some ICORE folks have been using .38 Short Colt cases in 627's at a PF of 120 without much problem. 3.6 grains of Titegroup under 158 grain RNL seems to work well.

Buck

 

[buck45]

Ahoy haggis,
That's the kind of knowledge I was after. Just tested wall thickness on a half dozen fired cases and got .010 as far in as the caliper would go, about 1/2". I don't have any 158 gr lead available but I suspect I wouldn't need to seat any further in than that.

All this info means that I can trim my nickel plated Winchester cases .075, lightly polish the chambers and use normal .38 Special load data. The ammo component supply problem just got a lot simpler. My supply of Titegroup is getting low and it's getting harder to come by in South Florida. I can usually find Unique and Red Dot at a couple of local shops but they aren't a choice in the Short Colt case. Another plus was your comment on ICORE loads. Not many people fighting over .38 cal lead either.

By the way, any thoughts on cylinder or throat erosion due to using the Short Colt brass in the .357 chamber? Haven't seen any but I don't want to damage the gun.

Thanks to all who responded.
_______________________________________________

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. - Thomas Jefferson

 

[AzShooter]

Go back to the very old manuals and the best loads listed for the .38 short colt were Unique and Red Dot. They were the only powders ever listed by the manufacturers for safe loads that would give minor velocity.

The heaviest load listed for titegroup is a 135 grain bullet with col of 1.135 and 2.7 grains for 760 fps for a power factor of only 100320

 

[buck45]

Ahoy AzShooter,
Thx for the info relative to Unique and Red Dot in the Short Colt but I'm not interested in loading to Short Colt specs as it doesn't make enough power to qualify for IPSC rules. Basement for power factor is 125. Means I need a 125 gr bullet at 1000 fps. Only reason I've been using the brass is because the short length makes ejection less of a problem when trying to reload fast. Lack of Titegroup powder forces me to find alternatives. If I can figure out a way to use the heads from safety matches as primers I'll be set.