Shot Shell in a .460 or .45 Colt

[Mnspring]

Shot Shell in a .460 or .45 Colt
Have you done it? What have you done?

A number of years ago, I picked up a cheep puberty S/A, 45. PO, thought it was cool to wipe it with ‘vanish’, to make it look, ‘old’. Well, it makes blue steel, old looking, BUT, now you really have to have a coat of oil on it. (The PO forgot that).

Anyway, remembering a Very Old article in a, gun, mag/book, where a .444 Marlin case, was used, cut, fire formed, into a shot shell for the .45. So, this was the perfect gun to play with. Used the .444 Marlin case, cut the dia & thickness of the rim. (Friend has a lath), and cut to the cyl length.

After loaded with shot, (loading info later), I then (well lubed) the case and put in a 444 die, to get a smaller dia. top, so it would fit the cyl. Worked, but a little stiff to push out after fired.

Then (what the heck), Reamed the Cyl out to .480 ALL the way through. Much better. NOW, S&W made the .460 brass. So Easy. Just cut to length with the bandsaw, and trim to make the mouth square. Now, works even better. I wear this 45 S/A, when Lawn mowing. And when I see a rabbit, (in season or course), or a wood chuck. Don’t have to worry about, what is over that hill, like a solid projectile, in rifle or handgun.

I have a recipe/method, that works real well in the S/A, Colt Clone. Was wondering, (now that I broke down, and purchased a, .460 V). Has anybody, experimented with this in their .460, ??? I am thinking even better, cause a bit more case, thus a bit more shot?

Here is what is happening in the 45 clone. S&W .460 brass. Cut to a frogs hair less than the cyl. Then powder, then a .44 copper gas check, (cup down). Pushed into place by a modified die. Then the shot, 1/2 oz, (5’s/6’s, seem to work best) Have played with #12, to # 4 shot. (WOW, the #12 shot, no snake in the world would miss the getting hit in the head, with at least 15+ pellets, at 30-40 feet). Next a 45 copper gas check, on top, (cup up), and a roll crimp, to turn the top of the case, into the cup.

Played with, buffering, different shot sizes, a wad, of paper, overshot wad of ‘pop’ can alum, cardboard, glue. Nothing worked as well, as the copper gas check.

So now, before I start experimenting with the full length, .460 brass, in the S&W .460 V.
Is their anybody, who has done this?
Would love to hear your experiences.

As to Powder, I used Bullseye, 1: cause I had it, 2: I have used it, (Who doesn’t remember, ‘2.7g/148gWC in the .38’). 3: it is fast with small volume. (How Much? That’s your job, I don’t carry insurance to cover your experiments.) FPS, 700 +/- seems to work best. Running to 800 +, blows the patterns. 600 -, well little better patterns. But it didn’t see worth it. A Rabbit or Chuck, at 50 feet, is a, Rabbit or Chuck, No More !

Yes Virginia, their IS rifling, in a handgun. And the BATFE rules are it can NOT be taken out, (Unless you want to do a Whole Bunch of other things). So I live with it. And deal with the short, in-effective range of the shot, from a rifled bore. Which is, in my opinion/experience, is only 74.89%, BETTER, than the little ineffective, ’Plastic Shot Capsules’.

So, I Know, someone else has done this. What have you done?
Thanks for your time.

 

[ruggyh]

Shoot damage groves and lands.

Why would you want to do that to a 460?

I have seen shot shells for 460 advertised and also seen them shoot but not in my guns.

Just use a cheap 45 Colt chambered revolver like your doing
or just buy a Governor or Judge for lot less dollar and shoot 410 with better effect.

Some may interpret this as having a short barrel shotgun if you did this in a 460.

Other should be aware this is not permitted in many states such as California.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[Magload]

We had a 22LR single shot rifle at the power plant my dad's friends worked at that shot so much bird shot that is leaded up so it was nearly a smooth bore. The bird shot rounds back in the early 60s didn't have a shot cup. We shot many a pigeon and other birds in the plant with it. The range was better then my clean barrel. Maybe you need to just shoot more.

 

[Mnspring]

Shoot damage groves and lands.

Why would you want to do that to a 460?

I have seen shot shells for 460 advertised and also seen them shoot but not in my guns.

Just use a cheap 45 Colt chambered revolver like your doing
or just buy a Governor or Judge for lot less dollar and shoot 410 with better effect.

Some may interpret this as having a short barrel shotgun if you did this in a 460.

Other should be aware this is not permitted in many states such as California.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

“ …Shoot damage groves and lands. …”

Last I checked, LEAD, is Much Softer than, STEEL !
How many times, has someone said:
“dis erer, .22 used to aureate, den, shot some of dat shot shell 22 in it, and a ain’t no accruat anymore.”
(( Gee, did ya think, he did NOT Clean IT ? ))

“ … I have seen shot shells for 460 advertised and also seen them shoot but not in my guns. …”
Yes, the, ‘Plastic’ capsules are not worth beans.

“ … just buy a Governor or Judge for lot less… “

NO, they are NOT, a Lot Less. (Than the 45 Clone)
And a standard, .410, 2-1/2” Load in a, Governor or Judge pistol,
is a HECK of a LOT more recoil, A HECK of a lot more, with LESS, Results !!!!!!!

“ … Some may interpret this as having a short barrel shotgun if you did this in a 460. …”
So a Governor or Judge, is Not ?????????
It is the Rifling, Read the LAW.

“ … Other should be aware this is not permitted in many states such as California…”
Don’t care ONE HOOT, what the Ultra Liberal, Fairy Dust Sprinklers, who don’t know the First Thing about Firearms, say.
I do NOT live in that State. (And NEVER WILL)

I posted this, because I thought, someone, who, had experience in this, could provide some insight.

I did NOT post this, so that someone, with NO Experience, in this kind of reloading, could play the, “Hillary card”

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

STEEL SHOT damages lands and grooves!.

In reading you methods for making "chamber length" shot shells for 45 Colt, I use a similar method. 460 S&W brass trimmed to 1.50-1.55". Sized with a 45 Long die. I use a .030 or .060" thick cork card over the powder and over the shot. (I use a 6.7 gr charge of WW231, then use a pencil to seat the card over the powder)(the cards are available from Midway and others for Black Power cartridge loading).I do not flare or crimp the case mouth, leave it straight. The case has been sized about 1/2" at the top with a 44-40 die to bottle neck the case where the bullet would normally be. Your shot column should end about 5/64" or more below the case mouth. The card is seated, then "sealed in place. The best product I've found for this is any gutter seam sealer (from Lowe's or Home Depot, & etc.) Let cure until dry and rubbery! I use this method on pistol shot shells as well as 12 and 20 gauge all brass shells. If the sealer isn't cured, it leaves a rubbery mess in the barrel that take a long time to scrub out, so I let mine cure for 3 weeks or more.
( I shot a 4 day old batch of BP 12 gauge at a vintage match and spent a little more than an hour per barrel cleaning the sealer out of my SxS.)
I use 1/2 ounce of 7 1/2 lead or magnum shot, at 700-750 feet per second. From my 5 1/2" Ruger Vaquero, I get a 12" pattern at 10-12 feet. This has sent more than one Copper Head to snake heaven in Ohio and West Virginia!

Ivan

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I load #9 shot in Speer shot capsules for the .38 Special and 45 Colt and both work very well. I use W231 under both. Those shot capsules are not meant to replace 410 shells but they make very good rat/snake shot.

 

[Magload]

I used to seal over shot wads in my brass 12 ga shells with a stuff caller Water Glass that was in the early 60s I don't know if you can even get it any more but it worked well.

 

[Skeet 028]

I cut card wads out of thin cardboard stock(like match book covers) and use two over powder dump shot in(after trying all sizes 8 1/2 seems best but 10s work on snakes). Put a gas check on the top slight crimp and then waterglass. If they are not going to lay around(or be carried)long then you can just use a card wad instead of the gas check. Oh btw..cards can be cut with a case that has been chamfered well. I use a 45 Colt for 44 mag and a 480 for 45 cal as it helps to make them tight and powder burn is better. Another card size that can be used is what was called a B over shot wad for shotshells...Yeah...I still have some from the 50s.

 

[2152hq]

I used cheap window & door caulking to seal the top wad (cardboard) on shotloads I made up for revolver and some largebore single & double rifle cases (500 x 3",,470 NE).

A small dab onto the top wad and a twist & smear with your thumb runs the stuff into the corner of the case and wad making a nice clean bead.
Let them dry as already mentioned and they are strong and simply disintegrate upon firing.

Soft lead shot with no plastic or even a paper collar to protect the bore will lead the bbl up. That's just a given. Even regular shotguns had leading problems before the common plastic wad came into use.
Cardboard and fibre filler wads were what was used and thats what we're doing with the pistol cased shot loads.

Scrub the lead out when you're done, that's all. Use high % antimony shot (harder) and it'll prevent much of it, but these are usually made on the cheap and not shot by the pallet load anyway.
Some use cut down .410 plastic wads to avoid leading. It works well but is another set in the process as well as an expense. It also takes up space and cuts down the shot payload a bit.
1/2oz is great in a 45,,that's the same as the standard .410 2 1/2" shell.
Shorter (rifled) bbl lengths generally pattern better than long ones. But a quick test on paper will give you the real results for your gun.

 

[Mnspring]

Thank you for the information, that all of you have provided.
(WELL except one)
It is interesting to see, many, similar things. And things I have tried.
So it looks like I am working on the same page.

Some comments; ‘Water Glass’. Yep, know what that is.
It’s is, ‘Sodium Silicate’. Used to just walk into to ANY drug store, and buy it.
Last time, (about 6 years ago), Loading some B.P. , 2 dram, 2-1/2 Inch, 1/2 oz, paper, roll crimp, 12g loads, for a buddy who just bought a beautiful, Hammer Parker. He was telling me one day over coffee, how that thing really kicked. I asked what did you shoot in it, he said, “well just 2 cheep, mart mart, 1oz 2-3/4 dram loads”.
After I wiped off the coffee that came out of my nose, I told him, Let me load you some shells, that are MADE, to shoot in that gun. (I figured he already, just re-profed it)

So, to be Authentic, I needed some ‘Water Glass’.
Local drug store, 20 year old +/- behind the counter: “Hi, where is your, Water Glass”, ‘What”, “Water Glass, or Sodium Silicate”, “What”, “It is a liquid, a Glue actually”, “Well do have a prescription”, “No, don’t need one, it is NOT a Drug”, “Well you can’t just walk in here and get Drugs”, “Ma’am, it is NOT a Drug, it is a Glue”. (Her Hands on hips now), “You can’t just walk in here any buy any Drugs You Want, with OUT, a Prescription”.
3 other stores, same thing.
Went to the Net, Yea, can Still get it, it is Still made. But very expensive.

Glue, sealing the over shot wad;
Water Glass, was one of the first ones. Dab of plain calk, then Silicone calk, then, ‘Shoe Glue’. Then, DUCO, cement. It dried fast. Then the Alum can wad, with Duco. But in all those cases, The last one, or two rounds, the top wad came loose, and the shot spilled out. (Recoil of the firearm) So the (cup Up) .45 Gas Check, with a roll crimp, over the top. worked the best. Yes sometimes patterns showed a, ‘hole’, because that top piece of copper, probably moved some shot away, as it was falling. But in the real world, (not a flat 2 demential one), it did not seem to make a difference in results.

Wad; Did some ‘brown paper bag’, wads, cut to 2 wraps would unfold after I put them in the case, before the shot. But did not make any difference. Over Powder wads. (I Live 30 miles from, ‘Ballistic Products”, and go their now and then) LOL. Also a wad cutter, can easily be made from a empty shell case. (Over the powder, under the shot) A, ‘factory’ nitro wad, Milk carton wads, wax paper wads, alum can wads, all worked. Just lazy, came across a box of 1,000 44 G.C., in a Auction box. They work, no interference with the pattern, as they drop away well before the shot. Only in very close, patterns, do they show as a ragged hole. (Oh, patterning, With this, (for Snakes), I lay a piece of paper, ON THE GROUND, not many snakes, are standing)

In the .460 V, I am thinking, that type of wad, may make a difference. Or, perhaps make a Comp, which, ‘is not’ a comp.
Don’t know yet. Your thoughts. This is where, I don’t want to reinvent the wheel !

Now, don’t, ‘have’ to do this. But it is like Sir Edmund Hillary, (NO RELATION to the *** Wanna Be Dictator). “Because I can”.

OH, do you know the difference between a, Conservative and a Liberal?
A, Conservative, does not want to do something, or know anything about that thing,
they just don’t do it.
A Liberal, does not want to do something, or know anything about that thing,
they PASS A LAW, that NO ONE ELSE can do That !

 

[Mnspring]

I used cheap window & door caulking to seal the top wad (cardboard) on shotloads I made up for revolver and some largebore single & double rifle cases (500 x 3",,470 NE).

A small dab onto the top wad and a twist & smear with your thumb runs the stuff into the corner of the case and wad making a nice clean bead.
Let them dry as already mentioned and they are strong and simply disintegrate upon firing.

Soft lead shot with no plastic or even a paper collar to protect the bore will lead the bbl up. That's just a given. Even regular shotguns had leading problems before the common plastic wad came into use.
Cardboard and fibre filler wads were what was used and thats what we're doing with the pistol cased shot loads.

Scrub the lead out when you're done, that's all. Use high % antimony shot (harder) and it'll prevent much of it, but these are usually made on the cheap and not shot by the pallet load anyway.
Some use cut down .410 plastic wads to avoid leading. It works well but is another set in the process as well as an expense. It also takes up space and cuts down the shot payload a bit.
1/2oz is great in a 45,,that's the same as the standard .410 2 1/2" shell.
Shorter (rifled) bbl lengths generally pattern better than long ones. But a quick test on paper will give you the real results for your gun.

Yes I found that out also. A, 'wad' of some kind reduced leading. But then again, the, 'filling' up, of the groves, with lead seemed to better the pattern. And of course, if that, firearm, were to be shot, with a single projectile, a thorough cleaning would be required.

The problems, (the copper Gas Check, solved), were the up to 5 times, being, subject to recoil, of the other rounds. And almost any kind of 'sealer' over the top wad/shot, worked, if it was used as a single shot.

Again, Thanks.

 

[Gamecock]

Many years ago (40?), I loaded shot in my Ruger .44 SBH.

Powder in (Unique), copper .44 gas check seated on top of it. Cup up, pushed in with a wood dowel. Poured in shot to top of case. Crimped a gas check over it, cup down.

Worked great! Never had a problem. Never had a sealing gas check jump crimp.

Effective range was pretty short as I recall, maybe 10 feet. I was quite surprised that the gas checks went through targets just like the shot.

 

[Wee Hooker]

My experimentation (and some web research) confirms that shorter barrel lengths produce more uniform/ predictable groups with shot capsules . Yours would be an interesting experiment but not necessarily a better solutionif you have a long barrel..

BTW, As long as your playing, try topping off that shot capsule load with a 45 cal lead ball instead of a wad. I've done it w 357 and it works pretty well. !

Keep us posted.

 

[rwsmith]

I played with the Speer......

I played with the Speer shot shells in .38 and the novelty wore off quick. I was never impressed with the effect, but I never tried it on anything alive.

The .45 caliber contains a good bit more shot and is probably more satisfactory.

 

[sandmansans]

I played with the Speer shot shells in .38 and the novelty wore off quick. I was never impressed with the effect, but I never tried it on anything alive.

The .45 caliber contains a good bit more shot and is probably more satisfactory.

I'd imagine so. Matt bullets makes them for the .500. They have a picture of the damage caused to the target, much more impressive than what shot shell in 38 looks like

http://mattsbullets.com/ammunition/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=23

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Mnspring]

My experimentation (and some web research) confirms that shorter barrel lengths produce more uniform/ predictable groups with shot capsules . Yours would be an interesting experiment but not necessarily a better solutionif you have a long barrel..

BTW, As long as your playing, try topping off that shot capsule load with a 45 cal lead ball instead of a wad. I've done it w 357 and it works pretty well. !

Keep us posted.

Very interesting.
Over Shot wad, (coper gas check) Cup Down !

Tried that, but is seemed like It ‘bulged ‘to much.
Will try that again, Just a frogs hair, deeper in the case.
Could perhaps get a few more pellets, ( depending on size), in the case.

Which brings me to: ‘alter net’, devices, to do things with.

Many years ago, went into a, ‘adult’ store, and perched a little 6’ long, ”thing’, that, Vibrated.
(Was using a fish tank air pump)
This thing, was compact, and used a little battery.
Great for touching the side of a case, and vibrating shot, or buffer, or a large amount of B.P. into the case.

Kinna like every 2 years or so, go into a, ‘mart-mart’, and buy, BRIGHT, Green, Blue, Red, Black, Yellow, NAIL Polish. (Just a tiny dab on the primer, and a dab on a card), for a legend of what is what.
Never use it all up. It dries out.
Last time when the 12+ year old, looked at me funny, I held out my big meaty hands, nails up, and said, with a smile: “Gee don’t you think I need a little Color”. LOLOL

This Comment: “…BTW, As long as your playing, try topping off that shot capsule load with a 45 cal lead ball instead of a wad. I’ve done it w 357 and it works pretty well. !…” Don’t know what you read, but I stated I don’t do shot capsules any more, (more than once). And a .454 dia single projectile, defeats the reason I am doing this, (Again said more than once).

However the round ball, does work, when it can not go into the case any deeper.
Powder, 2, TWO, milk carton wads over powder. Then ‘grits’, or something of the like. Just enough so a .454 RB sits, in the case Just above it’s center, and a roll crimp. Works great as a low power practice load, to learn the gun, sights, trigger, etc.

BUT, along the way, the, ‘Nitro Wad’ part between the powder & grits was forgot. Or never passed on.
(NO Powder Company EVER, recommended that load. In fact they ALL, said it was bad).
Loading powder, then grits, than bullet or ball, compression load, (With NO Nitro Wad) And the grits cleaned the bore a bit, after ever shot. And they worked good, for couple weeks after being loaded, a month after, well, don’t remember loading that high. 2 months after, Holy Cow, that must be a double charge. 3 months after, only one round is shot, and if the shooter still has a hand, the rest are pulled. What happened is, the Powder has a higher amount of moisture than the grits. So the grits, ’Suck’ the moisture out of the powder. Then when a amount of moisture in the powder, that the manufacture PUT THEIR, is gone. The Burn Rate of that Powder is, Completely Different! If, your going to do that compression load. You MUST, Separate the powder & Filler, with Nitro wad/ wax paper, waxed cardboard, etc. Or use a polymer filler, which will absorb NO, moisture from the powder.

Remember Black Tallon, The, gun banners got together, Had reports where 6 cops were shot, AND Killed, WHILE, they were ALL, Wearing Top of the line Bullet Proof Vests. They Stress, over and over, “6 Cops Killed, while Wearing B. P. Vests”. And the ‘committee’, who knew nothing about firearms, agreed. What the liars forgot to say, (A Lie is Also a omission of Facts), Those 6 cops were all shot in the head.

Just like A Wanna Be Dictator, when she told everybody; “Anyone, can Buy Any Gun Off the Internet”.
So all the soccer moms, who buy tea cups off flea bay, think buying a gun, is just That simple. So they Vote for more of her Lies. The Truth, (as those here know), you can , ‘buy’, but you can NOT, ‘Possess’, until you do all the things, the wanna be dictator says she is going to do. Which, (another LIE on her part), are already done.

As Paul Harvey always said, “The REST of the Story”

Think OUTSIDE, the Box. Be Safe, but Still, Think Outside the Box.

 

[Mnspring]

I'd imagine so. Matt bullets makes them for the .500. They have a picture of the damage caused to the target, much more impressive than what shot shell in 38 looks like.
http://mattsbullets.com/ammunition/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=23

Yes, went to that link.
That is a impressive shot shell.

 

[Magload]

Yes, went to that link.
That is a impressive shot shell.

Impressive group but I don't want to be 4 foot from that snake. They can strike 2/3 of their length so a 6 footer and you are in his range. Here in NE Florida a 6 foot Eastern Diamondback or longer is not uncommon.

 

[Mnspring]

Well the, Snake that can KILL, here, is, Only in the very, S.E. tip of Minn, the, ‘Timber Rattlers’, And the only time I go their, is in a car, on the road. Just can’t imagine, sitting on the ground in the Fall, deer hunting, or Spring Turkey hunting. (No Ruffled Grouse, or Pheasants in that area).

I have, played with the afore mentioned load, in #12 & #9 shot. And Patterned it a lot, in the winter. From my re-loading shed, Just step out the door, and, "ground pattern boards, All Over”. (The Snow). Pick something out, and shoot. Usually at 12-15 feet. Those are the loads, I keep, when I go to AZ.

In fact, first trip to Ajo Az, bout 12 years ago, Found the little early morning ‘coffee’ shop. Got to know some of the Locals. One day, one of them asked me, What I was going to do today. Told them, was planing on taking a drive out to ‘coffee Mtm’, and look for ‘Apache’ tears, and ‘Turquoise'. Locals said: “Watch out for dem Rattle Snakes”. I said,: “Thanks, I do have a gun”. Their was a, ‘yuppie’ couple, (From California I think), They spouted off: “OMG, You can’t shoot a Rattle Snake, they are endangered”. I turned to them, and said: “Well if one is coming after me, it sure is, In-Danger”. (Apparently, they did not notice the dozen or so, rattle snake skins, tacked to the walls, and the one over the door, was a, Green Mojave, and the skin, without head or tail, Had to be 8 Feet long, and 10 inches wide in the middle). All the Locals Laughed.

So, with my, ‘Modified’, .45 S/A Colt clone. I have a, ’snake load’, (# 9’s), I take with me when I think I need it.
And the other, (mostly # 5’s) , here, for rabbits, and wood chucks. ‘Played’ with those loads a lot, and what I have, works for me. (But More than willing to learn what others have done)

Yes, a ‘Governor/Judge’, is cheaper than a S&W .460. (and a bit lighter) BUT, just don’t want to shoot, a Full, Force, .410, 2-3/4 /3”, with one hand. Perhaps, will have to go to one of those guns, and a, ‘re-loaded’, .410 that, actually, performs, out of a handgun.

But the question, still is, the .460 .
Insight, on shooting ’shot’, loads, with a comp. (or make/Find/etc, a comp, that is not a comp).
I am thinking some sort of, ‘wad’ is going to be necessary. ?
Thanks for your time.

 

[Magload]

Well the, Snake that can KILL, here, is, Only in the very, S.E. tip of Minn, the, ‘Timber Rattlers’, And the only time I go their, is in a car, on the road. Just can’t imagine, sitting on the ground in the Fall, deer hunting, or Spring Turkey hunting. (No Ruffled Grouse, or Pheasants in that area).

I have, played with the afore mentioned load, in #12 & #9 shot. And Patterned it a lot, in the winter. From my re-loading shed, Just step out the door, and, "ground pattern boards, All Over”. (The Snow). Pick something out, and shoot. Usually at 12-15 feet. Those are the loads, I keep, when I go to AZ.

In fact, first trip to Ajo Az, bout 12 years ago, Found the little early morning ‘coffee’ shop. Got to know some of the Locals. One day, one of them asked me, What I was going to do today. Told them, was planing on taking a drive out to ‘coffee Mtm’, and look for ‘Apache’ tears, and ‘Turquoise'. Locals said: “Watch out for dem Rattle Snakes”. I said,: “Thanks, I do have a gun”. Their was a, ‘yuppie’ couple, (From California I think), They spouted off: “OMG, You can’t shoot a Rattle Snake, they are endangered”. I turned to them, and said: “Well if one is coming after me, it sure is, In-Danger”. (Apparently, they did not notice the dozen or so, rattle snake skins, tacked to the walls, and the one over the door, was a, Green Mojave, and the skin, without head or tail, Had to be 8 Feet long, and 10 inches wide in the middle). All the Locals Laughed.

So, with my, ‘Modified’, .45 S/A Colt clone. I have a, ’snake load’, (# 9’s), I take with me when I think I need it.
And the other, (mostly # 5’s) , here, for rabbits, and wood chucks. ‘Played’ with those loads a lot, and what I have, works for me. (But More than willing to learn what others have done)

Yes, a ‘Governor/Judge’, is cheaper than a S&W .460. (and a bit lighter) BUT, just don’t want to shoot, a Full, Force, .410, 2-3/4 /3”, with one hand. Perhaps, will have to go to one of those guns, and a, ‘re-loaded’, .410 that, actually, performs, out of a handgun.

But the question, still is, the .460 .
Insight, on shooting ’shot’, loads, with a comp. (or make/Find/etc, a comp, that is not a comp).
I am thinking some sort of, ‘wad’ is going to be necessary. ?
Thanks for your time.

Done a lot of fishing in your state from the SW border to Leach lake. Living about 20 miles down in Iowa from the border I hunted and fished a lot in those states. I liked that we had no poison snakes to deal with.