conchmariner
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I've read all kinds of opinions on what's better for SD/HD. Any thoughts?
Slow & Heavy Or Fast & Light?
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conchmariner
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I've read all kinds of opinions on what's better for SD/HD. Any thoughts?
Erich
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Comparing, say 9mm to .45 ACP, I perceive that either seem to work identically from handguns given modern bullets. After all, no defensive handgun round is really "fast."
Today I'm carrying 9mm +P 124-grain Gold Dots that do 1179 fps from this gun's 3" barrel. Yesterday I was carrying .45 ACP +P 200-grainers that do 984 fps from the barrel of the gun in question. Based on what I've seen, there's no practical difference in the abilities of these rounds for stopping human assailants.
Neither one of them is a 150-grain .308 at 2800 fps, that's for sure. The relevant question with a handgun probably should be which one can a given shooter place more quickly and accurately, and - corresponding to this - which one will s/he practice most with?
Study Gray's Anatomy, folks, if you're going to rely on a handgun.
Today I'm carrying 9mm +P 124-grain Gold Dots that do 1179 fps from this gun's 3" barrel. Yesterday I was carrying .45 ACP +P 200-grainers that do 984 fps from the barrel of the gun in question. Based on what I've seen, there's no practical difference in the abilities of these rounds for stopping human assailants.
Neither one of them is a 150-grain .308 at 2800 fps, that's for sure. The relevant question with a handgun probably should be which one can a given shooter place more quickly and accurately, and - corresponding to this - which one will s/he practice most with?
Study Gray's Anatomy, folks, if you're going to rely on a handgun.
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conchmariner
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That's a good answer Erich. I should have added the caveat everything else being equal ie assuming good shot placement. Your tag line is right on the money.
Erich
Member
Why, thank you, sir!
GatorFarmer
Member
You could always try big, heavy, and moderately fast. This exists in some 10mm offering, the .41 and .44 mags, or the .454 for the true masochist.
Meanwhile, if you google "Dr. Sydney Vail", you'll find the dissenting opinion of an experienced trauma surgeon who claims to regularly cut modern design bullets out of people that have failed to expand/perform as advertised. He's most associated with questions regarding certain "magic" fragmenting bullets, but one could also conclude that big and relatively heavy bullets of older design have nothing to go wrong or fail. Dr. Vail makes the point that most bullets are tested in gelatin, which may not be an adequate representation of what really happens in the very structures and squishy parts of humans.
Meanwhile, if you google "Dr. Sydney Vail", you'll find the dissenting opinion of an experienced trauma surgeon who claims to regularly cut modern design bullets out of people that have failed to expand/perform as advertised. He's most associated with questions regarding certain "magic" fragmenting bullets, but one could also conclude that big and relatively heavy bullets of older design have nothing to go wrong or fail. Dr. Vail makes the point that most bullets are tested in gelatin, which may not be an adequate representation of what really happens in the very structures and squishy parts of humans.
Erich
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Vail's probably right on that about the hollowpoints. I don't recall that I've ever seen a hollowpoint come out of a human looking like those that show up in magazine ads. "Moderate deformation" is the descriptor that I see a lot in OMI reports. I'm sure you get some good ones from time to time (Mas has some cases, I believe), but certainly one shouldn't get too wrapped up in hollowpoint performance.
I don't believe that expansion is any sort of important in handgun effectiveness on people, though (I like hollowpoints mainly for their tendency not to overpenetrate). And I have worked on two cases in which pathologists could not tell the wound tracks left by fat bullets from those left by middling bullets.
RE: the 10s and .41s. I really like those. But I can tell you that I can't shoot them fast if they're the heavy and moderately fast ones. And I don't really know anyone who can or does. Plus, the overpenetration worries are a concern.
The Feebies have pretty good science on this, and, based on that, they backed away from the full-power 10s to what became the Short & Weak. I loaded up a whole mess of .41s just yesterday: a bunch of hot 215-grainers over a max charge of Lil' Gun for hiking up Bear Canyon, and a whole bunch of the same LSWCs over a moderate charge of SR 7625 to get me just over 1k fps from my 4" 57. Those are what I'd carry: I can shoot them rapidly and accurately, and I can practice with them until the cows come home. Plus, I don't think they'd be so likely to come blasting through an ED and continue on through the school bus, the nursing home, the grocery store, etc.
I don't believe that expansion is any sort of important in handgun effectiveness on people, though (I like hollowpoints mainly for their tendency not to overpenetrate). And I have worked on two cases in which pathologists could not tell the wound tracks left by fat bullets from those left by middling bullets.
RE: the 10s and .41s. I really like those. But I can tell you that I can't shoot them fast if they're the heavy and moderately fast ones. And I don't really know anyone who can or does. Plus, the overpenetration worries are a concern.
The Feebies have pretty good science on this, and, based on that, they backed away from the full-power 10s to what became the Short & Weak. I loaded up a whole mess of .41s just yesterday: a bunch of hot 215-grainers over a max charge of Lil' Gun for hiking up Bear Canyon, and a whole bunch of the same LSWCs over a moderate charge of SR 7625 to get me just over 1k fps from my 4" 57. Those are what I'd carry: I can shoot them rapidly and accurately, and I can practice with them until the cows come home. Plus, I don't think they'd be so likely to come blasting through an ED and continue on through the school bus, the nursing home, the grocery store, etc.
flop-shank
US Veteran
I like midweight for caliber bullets pushed as fast as is contollable. I believe that high energy rounds such as the 10mm and magnum revolver cartridges are more effective stoppers. I also feel that a bullet that is too heavy will penetrate just fine. A bullet that is too light may not, so I really dislike ultralight bullets (a 90 gr. 9mm would be a great example).
To reinforce what Erich has said, the argument was over long ago: with a handgun, you are stuck with "medium heavy and medium fast."
At the threshold speed of 200fps needed to penetrate at all, the bullet would have to be the size of an orange for weight alone to insure incapacitation.
With the minimum size bullet practical from a handgun for defensive purposes, it would have to achieve rifle velocities for the same effect.
All practical handguns perform with medium bullets shot at what are, any way you look at it, medium speeds.
Gelatin is a valid uniform medium for lab comparisons of bullets, but humans are not uniform. So unless you get lucky and hit a bone or the central nervous system, forget about the "best bullet" or "one shot stop" and be prepared to keep shooting.
At the threshold speed of 200fps needed to penetrate at all, the bullet would have to be the size of an orange for weight alone to insure incapacitation.
With the minimum size bullet practical from a handgun for defensive purposes, it would have to achieve rifle velocities for the same effect.
All practical handguns perform with medium bullets shot at what are, any way you look at it, medium speeds.
Gelatin is a valid uniform medium for lab comparisons of bullets, but humans are not uniform. So unless you get lucky and hit a bone or the central nervous system, forget about the "best bullet" or "one shot stop" and be prepared to keep shooting.
Hoptob
Member
When it comes to selecting carry ammo, I take my information from stopping power tables posted on handloads.com site.
I now that not everyone would agree; in fact many respected members of this forum disagree entirely.
I respect their opinion. Yet, AFAIK it is the only publicly available source of this data. I am more comfortable using some data for ammo selection -- even if it's validity is disputed -- than none at all.
Mike
I now that not everyone would agree; in fact many respected members of this forum disagree entirely.
Mike
Out West
Member
How about "as fast as heavy will go"? I've come to prefer heavier bullets in all of the calibers that I use. I want the best sectional density I can get in order to maximize penetration depth. That said, there are lots of good choices and sometimes we spend too much time trying to optimize all the possible variables.
Jeff Cooper talked about PII - Preoccupation with Inconsequential Increments, or attributing too much importance to measurable but small deviations in performance. After all, a miss negates all the best research and preparation!
Out West
Jeff Cooper talked about PII - Preoccupation with Inconsequential Increments, or attributing too much importance to measurable but small deviations in performance. After all, a miss negates all the best research and preparation!
Out West
I always liked handgun ammo that would go at least 1000fps for some reason, and thats probably why I like the .357 Magnum and the .40 S&W for defensive use. I guess I felt that would be a good minimum velocity for expansion and hard barrier penetration. I remember when I first got into IPSC shooting 25 yrs ago, I was in a match and the sunlight was just right and I could see the .45 bullets going down range hitting the targets. The .45 is a great stopper but that bugged me that I could see the bullets and since then and I have always liked a bit more velocity.
Dennis The B
US Veteran
Then you would enjoy watching a projectile from a 16" naval rifle heading for the horizon. (Having seen this phenomena on the bridge of USS New Jersey)
Big, heavy and medium speed is good. When the BG gets hit, it makes him sit down, ponder things, and stay out of the fight.
S/W - Lifer
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Another vote for big bullets and mid-level velocity. I'm in favor of the .41 - .45 bore with 200 to 250 grain bullets in the 900 to 1000 fps range. I'd rather not be saddled with this month's flavor-of-the-month expanding bullet, preferring traditional designs instead.
Even more important, I think, is reading situations and people. If I have to shoot I prefer the first round out to be mine and a solid hit in the sternum followed by a second. A lot is going to be happening about this time so focusing on the front sight and reasonable trigger control is a plus.
I do not trust any expanding handgun bullet to actually expand on a human target. They can figure that out in the morgue but you have to put him there first. I'm running with the bigger bores in a double action revolver. If you do this right you'll never have to do a combat reload.
Even more important, I think, is reading situations and people. If I have to shoot I prefer the first round out to be mine and a solid hit in the sternum followed by a second. A lot is going to be happening about this time so focusing on the front sight and reasonable trigger control is a plus.
I do not trust any expanding handgun bullet to actually expand on a human target. They can figure that out in the morgue but you have to put him there first. I'm running with the bigger bores in a double action revolver. If you do this right you'll never have to do a combat reload.
84CJ
US Veteran
460 S&W
Vulcan Bob
Member
I've always been a Julian Hatcher devotee. Big and heavy are good. Now I must agree that modren bullet design really has improved the small bores performance. But when you start out with big, you do not have to rely on bullet expansion to get big! I must admit I do fudge now and again with the big bores and choose a heavy hollow point, if it expand's great, if not still got the large diameter anyway.
Erich
Member
What about the fact that an experienced pathologist can't tell the difference between the wound track left by a 9mm and that left by a .45?
tac803
Member
When I worked as a paramedic in my younger days, I saw a lot of people sporting gun shot wounds. Some were dead, and some weren't. Often, it didn't make a lot of difference what caliber they were shot with. I had a guy drilled through the sternum with a .25 that had "DMJ" (Done Met Jesus), and another shot multiple times with a 9mm that was still fighting with us. Many folks succumbed to wounds caused by small caliber rounds, and some shot in the head at point blank range with larger calibers suffered not much more than a bad headache.
It's a nice debate for a cold night around the fireplace with a glass of scotch, but the bottom line is shot placement.
Find out what your carry gun shoots accurately, and use it. Practice with that load until you are confident in the gun, ammo, and most importantly, yourself. Put the bullets where they count. That is the most important factor in terminating a lethal threat.
Just my humble opinion
.
It's a nice debate for a cold night around the fireplace with a glass of scotch, but the bottom line is shot placement.
Find out what your carry gun shoots accurately, and use it. Practice with that load until you are confident in the gun, ammo, and most importantly, yourself. Put the bullets where they count. That is the most important factor in terminating a lethal threat.
Just my humble opinion
G
Guest
Since, at least one person has been killed by Blanks I think it gets down to the simple idea of "Shot Placement" and nothing more!
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