Snapped Side Plate Screw Fix?

[snubbiefan]

Probably lots of how-too discussions on the forum here somewhere and maybe somebody can direct me to another thread.

I took a new-to-me Air-Lite apart to check the innards and install a set of springs. I figure Godzilla was the previous owner of this gun. The screw under the grip (thank goodness) would not budge...nothing I tried worked...heat, wax, lube-and-soak...nothing. I took the leap and went ahead and tried the left-hand drill technique and it worked....the head snapped right off the screw. I then drilled out the screw remaining in the frame hoping the left-hand bit would pull it out....no luck. I drilled all way through the screw. So...now I am faced with suggestions about how to fix my problem.

I could drill the remnants of the screw out and then drill the hole oversize to the same size as the yoke retention screw and simply machine the head of that screw down a bit to fit the hole...and probably enlarge the side-plate hole also and countersink it so the screw would fit.I think there is "just" enough room for that.

Another option may be to simply go ahead and drill the hole through the other side of the frame and tap that to the proper size screw and get a longer screw.

Anybody have any ideas? This will all be under the grip anyway, but I do want to make it as professional as possibly. It's a NL....and I don't intend to destroy a NL frame.

 

[cochise]

Wow, never heard of this one with a firearm. Sounds like the hard part is done, drilling all the way through the screw without messing up the threads. Try soaking it with Kroil oil. {the oil that creeps}

Working with door locks, this does happen to me. After drilling, I use the smallest punch possible and gently tap the side of the screw until it bends in and take a quality needle nose pliers and gripping tightly with as much of the screw as possible, rotate the piece counter colck wise. I have screwed it all the way through when possible, with a razor knife or a jewl'rs screw driver.

 

[snubbiefan]

I have tried to drill it out as thin as I thought I could get away with and I just can't seems to get whats left in there to budge. I have fixed more than a few like this....on auto engines, tractors and such equipment, but we don't have much space to work with here. I honestly think the screw may have been glued in. There is just no excuse for these things to have been in there that tight. I don't see how they were without pulling the threads, but the other two holes in the frame for the side plate are fine. Like I said...it is a used weapon, so who knows what idiot had hold of it. Must have been one that had lost the screws before.

I have another idea that will work, if I do wind up messing the threads up. I don't see why the old hole can't be enlarged enough to swag in a short section of aluminum bar flat with the mating surface, put the side plate back on...mark the hole center and simply drill-n-tap for the original screw into the fresh aluminum plug.

This is a NL....I would rather go to that trouble of installing an aluminum plug in an oversize hole and drill a new hole from scratch. use the stock (new) screw and neither me or anybody else could tell the difference. Maybe that's over-kill....but I won't have to monkey with the side plate cover hole.

 

[H Richard]

Is there enough of the old screw shank left to get a appropriate sized easy-out into? If not, drill out a little further and use a tap to re-cut the threads while cleaning out the old screw residue.

 

[snubbiefan]

I have tried to drill it out as thin as I thought I could get away with and I just can't seems to get whats left in there to budge. I have fixed more than a few like this....on auto engines, tractors and such equipment, but we don't have much space to work with here. I honestly think the screw may have been glued in. There is just no excuse for these things to have been in there that tight. I don't see how they were without pulling the threads, but the other two holes in the frame for the side plate are fine. Like I said...it is a used weapon, so who knows what idiot had hold of it. Must have been one that had lost the screws before.

I have another idea that will work, if I do wind up messing the threads up. I don't see why the original hole can't be enlarged enough to be tapped for a larger screw....then cut it off even with the frame ...mark the hole center and simply drill-n-tap for the original screw into the fresh metal. Seems like this would get the hole back in the right place with the correct screw and not have to tamper with the side plate.

I'll try some acetone, but what's left in there is really stuck. I am about willing to bet a former owner DID tighten that one too much and stripped it....then glued it.

 

[pharmer]

Previous owner had a problem with the screw coming loose. A little red loctite fixed it permanently. Joe

 

[snubbiefan]

I think you nailed it. There is simply no reason that I should not be able to "work" the very thin remnants of that screw over from the edge into the hole and break it out in pieces. I have done that many times before with machinery......These little pieces are stuck....stuck....stuck.

I think I have hit on the best fix. I will simply enlarge the hole to take like a #8 screw....tap it for that....seat the screw in the hole and mark where it bottoms....take it back out and cut "almost" through it. Then I will screw it in with a coating of epoxy....snap it off, polish it up level with the frame and just rebuild the hole. This is just about the only way I could live with it...whether I could see it under the grips or not.

I don't think they make an insert small enough for me to use for that....so I will just build my own. The little rascal is a good shooter, but the trigger was pure ****. Once I got in there to work on it, I could tell why. This owner did not believe in oil or grease. I think he just sprayed it down after each use with carburetor or brake parts cleaner and put it away. It was dry as a bone and really deserves a new owner that will apply TLC to an Air-Lite NL.

 

[chief38]

snubbiefan,

If the head of the screw is now gone I would assume that you can or have already removed the side plate. I would continue drilling out the screw shank with progressively larger bits in small increments until you just about get to the threads but before you drill the thread out. I would then try this procedure............

1) try heating the gun around the screw while using either a custom ground square tool like a screwdriver shank. The square shape might just grab what is left of the screw threads enough to get it out.

2) if that does not work, try a miniature diamond bit in a Dremel to CAREFULLY remove the screw threads.

Even if you grind off some of the female threads on one side of the hole, you can re-tap it with the original size and hope a new original screw still grabs.

Worst case scenario you might have to enlarge the hole and use the next larger size screw after tapping it. I would definitely NOT drill a hole into the other side of the frame.

I have 3 different types of Locktite in my toolbox, but I have never used them on any type of firearm for this specific reason. I use the stuff most of the time on my Motorcycle where there is a lot of vibration.

The procedures above have saved me a few times while working on my auto's & motorcycles, but on a small gun it is a little harder because of the small hole you are working with. Harder, but not impossible. Don't get frustrated, take your time and you should be OK. I hope you have a drill press and a good drill press vise for more precise control of your drilling. PS: if you can progressively drill out the screw, you might be able to use a pick or similar devise to pick out what is left of the screw threads.

Side note: I have thrown all my easy-outs in the trash. They have NEVER worked for me, not even once! In fact, most of the time the easy-out snapped and then I have to remove that as well which is one hell of a job because they are hardened steel.

Chief38

 

[tomcatt51]

I'd throw it in the oven at 250 degrees and see if the aluminum expands enough to let you unscrew the remains of the screw.

 

[scooter123]

I'd throw it in the oven at 250 degrees and see if the aluminum expands enough to let you unscrew the remains of the screw.

This is where you should have started. There is one high temperature locktite that requires 450 degrees but it's normally a special order item and all the others will melt well under 250 degrees. Anytime I run into a screw that doesn't want to budge into the oven it goes. Unfortunately at this point you don't have enough remaining screw to allow you to "pick" it out.

One possible solution is to pick up some MEK (IIRC Methyl Ethel Keytone) and keep soaking the hole. If it works down to whatever glue was used on this screw it will eventually disolve it. However, if there is any painted finish on that gun just one drop will do a real number on the paint.

 

[Fred_P]

Heli-coil

A virtually invisible fix that would be as strong (or stronger) than the original tapped hole is to use a Heli-coil. They are made down to #1 screw size. I've used them to repair stripped tapped holes in carburetors and never had one fail.

If you're not familiar with them, they look like a tightly-wound spring. The inside is shaped to allow the original screw to thread into it, and the outside is sized larger -- not the next screw size, but a special Heli-coil size that requires a specific numbered drill and a special Heli-coil tap.

The procedure is to drill out the hole to the new, larger size. Tap with the special tap. Insert the Heli-coil with the insertion tool (it's screwed into the tapped hole) and break off the internal tang. The original screw will screw into the Heli-coil just as before.

It's not a cheap solution, but almost impossible to detect. Industrial supply houses usually sell parts and kits.

Good luck!

Fred

 

[snubbiefan]

First of all....I agree the Heli-coil is not a cheap solution...but this is not a cheap gun either.

I have some time to "figure out" how I want to do this and I have used a Heli-coil before. I just was not sure if they made them down to a size this small. I think it would be a wonderfully good fix.

Over-sizing the hole and tapping for a next-larger screw is also a good option. I will also have to slightly over-size the side plate cover hole and counter-sink it. But...the good thing about all this is that I was lucky enough to have the problem on the screw hidden by the grip.

Had I put in in the oven (as suggested) right off the bat, I likely could have then gotten it all out, but I tried the old trusty left-hand drill first, which resulted in getting the head and side plate off. I was able to drill out the remaining screw to the edge of the threads, but I am pretty sure some of the threads are buggered. As I reflect on it....the previous owner had to have a reason to glue that screw in to begin with and I am betting he/she over-tightened it and stripped them anyway. The darn screw was under the grip and would never fall out anyway.

I am going to consider the Heli-coil or insert fix. It's not like it can't be done either way and once it's done....it will be just fine.

I think the "lesson-learned" here for future viewers is to exhaust every possibly with the various glue-dissolving chemicals and the oven heating technique B4 you get out the ole left-hand drill bit.

The GOOD thing is that the internals are in perfect working order, no pins or studs were broken and nothing is missing. I think I can clean and lube this little rascal up and even shoot it without the rear plate screw if it came down to it....but ya'll know I will fix it. Even if I wind up taking it to a machinist that I trust and spend the $ to have it done. It's worth it to me to have another Smith without the "infernal" lock hole!

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

 

[chief38]

My opinion (and I have used Helicoils before) is don't use a HC. If you are going to go through the job of drilling and tapping, why not just use the next size conventional style machine screw?? Makes more sense to me as it will then be a conventional screw and would not be as objectionable to someone if & when you ever sell the gun. Just my opinion of course.......

Chief38

 

[tomcatt51]

My opinion (and I have used Helicoils before) is don't use a HC. If you are going to go through the job of drilling and tapping, why not just use the next size conventional style machine screw?? Makes more sense to me as it will then be a conventional screw and would not be as objectionable to someone if & when you ever sell the gun. Just my opinion of course.......

Chief38

??? Helicoiling the hole will allow using an original screw.

 

[-db-]

??? Helicoiling the hole will allow using an original screw.

No only that, but it will be a stronger fixture than the original, particularly in aluminum.

 

[snubbiefan]

That was my only thinking with the use of an insert or Heli-coil. If I go with the next sized screw...I will have to enlarge and counter-sink the side plate hole for the larger head. True...the head can be turned down , but in the process of drilling the opening in the plate for the larger screw....you remove the shoulder in the screw-hole, which means you have to enlarge the side plate hole and then counter-sink it you leave the shoulder. There just is darn little room on that rear side plate mounting hole for much enlargement.

I have about decided to simply tap the hole out to a #8 (which will fit the flat in the frame and leave some extra material around the hole. Then, locktite it in and trim it off even with the frame. I will then have a fresh new flat surface to drill and tap for the original screw and not have to alter the side plate hole.

 

[wiley]

Afairly high wattage soldering iron can help with the loctite and it localizes heat. Getting up to max heat and cooling back down with Breakfree will allow the fluid to be adsorbed in the joint as it contracts.

 

[snubbiefan]

I hate for this thread to run-on guys, but I hope it is interesting and productive. I am willing to bet that out of the thousands of Smiths out there....there would be more than a few that have a stuck or broken screw as we speak....and the owner may not even know it.

I am in the midst of thinking a lot about how to handle this and am gathering-up the stuff for the fix as I go. The thread size/pitch is 5-44 for the stock small Smith plate screw. I think I am going to take a look at a 6-40 tap...which would be the next size up. Maybe....just maybe it will be over-sized enough to thread the old hole, yet still work without too much modification of the plate hole.

I promise to get-up a picture of the existing hole and the steps through the fix.....just in case any of you folks have one of those with the stuck or broke screw and don't know it yet.

No...there is no Smith in my area that I trust it with. One told me he would drill the hole all the way through the frame, nut the other side and I could trim/hollow-out the grips to cover the nut. I visited a gunsmith at the local show last week who had a big sign over his table that read "GUN REPAIR" I went over to him and he said....well, I did not bring any tools. Now, you tell me how this guy is going to fix a gun with no tools. This is the kind of **** I try to avoid. This is not a blame lawn-mower.

Just to clarify things a bit....stop recommending ways to remove the old screw....it's gone. I drilled it out with the left-hand bit. What I have left is a slightly buggered-up hole with smaller traces of the old glued-in screw showing. Yep....I do plan to first try and run a 5-44 tap and see of that will clean out the hole, but I think it will be very difficult to get it to re-trace the original threads.

 

[Titegroups]

Another option if all goes to hell would be to find someone to TIG weld the hole full and just drill and tap again. The difficult part will be finding a qualified welder. The heat may warp parts and will affect heat treat. Last ditch effort IMO but doable with the right welder.

 

[cochise]

Sounds like you are the right track, try re-tapping first. I hope it does the trick for you.