So, what did I buy?

J

John in WYO

Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2016
Messages
19
Reaction score
58
Good evening to you all, Gents.
I received word of an estate sale through a friend and purchased several revolvers as a result.

I know this one would be a Hand Ejector, Target sights (I think it had a gold front bead at one time), 6" .38 S&W Special CTG. Serial number is 309xxx. Last patent date on top of barrel is Dec 29, 14. 5 screw K size frame

The grip are interesting, hammer, Ejector Rod head is round. A nice, clean, original condition revolver.

I'm thinking it is a late teens, early twenties vintage from the last century.

Can anyone give it a proper nomenclature/model?

Couldn't turn it down at $165.00.....I know, I know!

As an aside, does anyone know who might re-install a gold bead in the front sight?

Thanks for any help.

John



 
Register to hide this ad
#330003 shipped 3/1920 so I'd say you were close on an estimate of late teens. I've not seen grips like that before and am curious what the experts will say. Great price.
 
...you did well...

...mine is from 1925...has matching number grips...and I paid $875...

pix817390182.jpg


pix711501407.jpg
 
309xxx was probably assembled in the summer of 1919, since 316648 was the first one with a heat treated cylinder in September, 1919. 309xxx could, of course, have shipped later, but the 316648 benchmark tends to indicate this one did not have a heat treated cylinder and was produced before that innovation was introduced.

Added: By the way, $165 for a target model from this period is one heck of a good buy, wrong stocks notwithstanding. :)
 
Last edited:
I have a Nov. 1919 ship date for a 308xxx serial in my list, so that fits with the previous estimates and the missing sideplate/frame logo, a wartime exigency that extended into early 1920.
 
The front sight is known as the Paine Black Bead---standard on Hand Ejector Targets from 1896 to 1905, and available on order to 1942. It had been standard on top-breaks from 1878 to 1905---was quite popular and was carried over, and is often found on revolvers beyond its time. The only likely variant (other than the Low Paine and Paine Square Bead) is the Paine Silver Bead---and the bead portion overhangs the sight body at the rear.

All those estimating a late teens ship date have it pretty much nailed.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Thanks very much!

I'll try to get some better front sight pictures.
I haven't taken the grips off to see if f there are any numbers.

My main interest in it was because the manufacturing date was close to when my great uncle started with OKC PD-1919, retired in 1954. Should be a great period revolver for a shadow box with badge and call-box key.
 
In the for what it's worth department, I've enlarged the photos 500%, which did an excellent job blowing the resolution all to hell. What I think I saw is the aft portion of the top section (the bead) stops ahead of the aft portion of the stem/blade---which it should not---irregardless of whether it's a black bead or silver bead. The sight blade will be numbered to the gun (if original). Given it's original, and any Paine variant, it was a special order---which may or may not be indicated on the invoice. (If it cost extra, it's noted---not likely otherwise (but possible).)

I shall await close-ups of the front sight before running my mouth any more.

Ralph Tremaine
 
Okay----well aside from the general shape which most certainly resembles the Paine Black Bead, it isn't.

As to what it might have been before it was attacked by what appears to have been a very angry beaver is anybody's guess. Stroebel's Old Gunsights-A Collector's Guide, 1850-1965 shows several possibilities; only one of which is designated for use with a handgun (and unlikely). The most likely others are labeled as carbine sights (with available bead diameters of 1/16", 3/32", and 1/8"), so if what you're seeing as a bead seat is compatible, then--------maybe. (The standard Lyman bead was ivory---gold, red, and silver were options. The bead diameter on S&W's in my collection which carry Lyman sights is .060".)

So much for what it might have been. What it almost certainly is not is anything that ever saw the inside of S&W's plant (and that's based on the Bubba job on the pin). If you wish to restore the front sight to what it most likely was when it left Springfield, the so-called Thin Round Top Blade is your best bet---standard on S&W HE target revolvers from 1905 to 1923. The height should be that which stands .318" above the base.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, the Thin Round Top Blade is as common as dirt; and should be readily available from the sight folks (George Dye, Don Mundell). If not, it should be child's play to make; and I'll be glad to pull one out and provide a drawing/tracing/dimensions.
 
Last edited:
John in WYO, you did very well. Older, pre-war S&W target revolvers are of my favorites. This would be a 1905/4th change that were made - for the longest period of time, likely from the mid to late 1910s right up to (just prior to WWII). After Pearl Harbor whatever was in the machine works had been completed into early 1942 when Uncle Sam took over all the firearms manufacturing of all major gun companies and took over others too, such as autos, trucks, planes, etc.

Of this specific model I have 5 with very slight variations (e.g. stocks, rear sights, etc.) but basically the exact same. I don't know which one of mine I like the best but I like yours, too.

You did extremely well on the purchase price. If not refinished and considering the front sight is likely modified, with non-original stocks its worth much more than you paid for it, if mechanically excellent.

If you're going to shoot it have a good gunsmith give it the "once-over" to make sure it is operating correctly and safely.

I suggest you first try the .38 Special wad-cutter, factory pack, Target rounds ( usually associated to and made for the .38 Master Model 52). Has a standard powder charge with 148 grain lead projectiles then work your way to a comfort zone from there.

These rounds in factory packs are extremely accurate so if you're off mark it will likely be your own fault. Start at 15 yards, at a 6 O'clock hold (or aim) which means you level off those target sights to the bottom center of the black rings of a standard NRA bullseye target.

After that, move it out to a comfortable distance for you. If it is functioning properly and in excellent condition, and if it was mounted in a Ransom Rest, at 15 yards you should have less than a 1" variance.

Good luck with that and an excellent find, especially at that price. Sal
 
Last edited:
Hi! You might want to think outside the proverbial box with this front sight. I have a depression era Winchester 94 that this sight looks like it could wear it. This could be a Lyman rifle sight adapted to your Smith!
 
I have several S&W"S that letter with Lyman sights. One even has the Lyman Ivory Bar rear sight. I've not seen one with this profile, but I do have a Lyman catalog that I can check, to see what was offered.

I'd suggest getting a factory letter. If the gun was a special order, it might have had a non-standard front sight. As Ralph notes, the factory did not mount the one you have, with the pin that holds it in.

Mike Priwer
 
mikepriwer said:
I have several S&W"S that letter with Lyman sights. One even has the Lyman Ivory Bar rear sight. I've not seen one with this profile, but I do have a Lyman catalog that I can check, to see what was offered.

I'd suggest getting a factory letter. If the gun was a special order, it might have had a non-standard front sight. As Ralph notes, the factory did not mount the one you have, with the pin that holds it in.

Mike Priwer
Click to expand...

Mike, that front Lyman sight was likely cleaned up with a file. The serrations are not uniform and the round top "bead" (not really a bead) was filed to make is shine. Or, perhaps it had a white bead and lost it over the years.

If that tip (bead) is only metal it is made reflective again (after years of storage) with a light (un-sewn) muslin wheel on a Dremel and dab or light rouge or polish will make that little bead area shine like a newly minted coin.
 
mikepriwer said:
I have several S&W"S that letter with Lyman sights. One even has the Lyman Ivory Bar rear sight. I've not seen one with this profile, but I do have a Lyman catalog that I can check, to see what was offered.

I'd suggest getting a factory letter. If the gun was a special order, it might have had a non-standard front sight. As Ralph notes, the factory did not mount the one you have, with the pin that holds it in.

Mike Priwer
Click to expand...

Mike speaks of the Lyman Ivory Bar rear sight. I've always heard of it referred to as the Lyman Ivory Slide sight. I can make a good case for either name, but I have no idea what's correct-----what Lyman called it. Does anybody know what them what made it called it?

Ralph Tremaine
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

BornHereS&W
WWII mystery. .38 S&W revolver
2
Replies
27
Views
2K
Retired W4
Retired W4
C
Need help with info on a 13-3 PPC gun and its Gun Smith
Replies
10
Views
632
KAC
K
C
Can you help ID this model 13-3 PPC
Replies
7
Views
489
J56
J
cmansguns
Another 32 Long - but exactly what is it??? UPDATE CONFIRMING MODEL
Replies
4
Views
1K
cgt4570
cgt4570
RM Vivas
Archival Observations: A Man Who Knows What He Wants; The Queen Of Kings
Replies
4
Views
424
RM Vivas
RM Vivas

Latest posts

Back
Top