Split brass with 'factory' ammo ? 357 MAX

[PatriotX]

Hi S&Wers,

I recently acquired a beautiful Dan Wesson 357 Supermag to compliment the S&Ws in the safe, and ran into a bit of an ammo issue. I was originally going to post this in the "ammo" sub-forum, but decided that this one was probably frequented by more folks with the requisite expertise.


So far, I've shot vintage Remington 158gr 357 MAX, 158gr 357 mag, and some powder-puff 38spl wadcutters out of this gun, and it has been fun and deadly accurate.


I recently acquired some Jameson 158gr 357MAX 'predator grade' through the LGS, and was surprised to find the first cylinder of this ammo required a cleaning rod to coax the brass from the cylinder. 5 of 6 cases were split most of the way down!!

Nothing on the gun would indicate anything out of sorts, as it was clean and the chambers carbon-deposit free.

Is this an ammo problem, a gun problem, or a user problem ?


Pics:

Thoughts? Comments? Any input welcome.

Thanks !!!

 

[blujax01]

It's a brass problem.

I would politely take it back to your gun store and ask if they could help you get your money back from the ammo manufacturer. Gun shops buy from distributers who buy from manufacturers. Your LGS bought it in good faith. If they aren't willing, you can always raise a stink later.


I read up on Jamison Brass and Ammunition and they were in serious legal trouble in 2011 for selling weapons grade material to foreign countries without a permit and ended up dissolving the company. According to some chatter, they're apparently back in business.

If they keep making ammo like yours, they won't last long.

Your gun is ion no danger from the experience but man, that's as bad a case of the splits as I've seen.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I had some Virgin 44 Russian cases from Top Brass. 2/3 to 3/4 of the cases split on the first firing with a Trail Boss load. The remainder split on the next firing. Bad Brass will split under any or almost no pressure. Years ago I was forming some Nitro Express cases from BELL BRASS 450 Basic and the inside of the case walls pealed like a banana (but not very deep). I called BELL and talked to them about it. 17 of 60 brass did this, the said they had bought several tons of brass from India that didn't meet specs and they thought the got all the formed brass they made, ask me where I bought it (Dixie Gunworks) and sent me 2 full boxes (40 pieces) I kept the bad cases for Black Powder Express loads and they did fine, but I never trusted them for Nitro loads. Good luck on your money back. Ivan

 

[PatriotX]

Thanks for the input, guys.

The uniformity of the splits struck me as odd, appearing to possibly be a brass defect or weakness.

I'll see how it goes with the LGS tomorrow.

 

[scooter123]

To me that looks like BAD Brass, really really BAD Brass. It's only a hunch but I would suspect the brass was exposed to a mild acid over an extended period of time. This can cause dezincification and when that happens the brass can look normal but be so weakened you can crumble it with your fingers.

I like to pick up once fired brass at the local gun shows and once had 2 Winchester cases that were so weakened the nearly fell apart when I tried to press a bullet into the cases. On closer examination I was able to crush the cases with just a thumb and forefinger and it didn't take much effort at all. I suspect those cases had been sitting in that grass at a local range for a few years and were basically corroded to nearly nothing.

 

[papajohn428]

I had an H&R Single-shot (Model 158) about 30 years ago that had a 357 Max barrel, and it was a hoot to tinker with, but factory ammo was pricey even then, and hard to find. I wound up with two boxes of Federal 180-JHP's, it was good ammo but it kicked the snot out of me with that crummy stock design. I started getting splits on about the 3rd firing, and they didn't last long, even though they were new production and nickle-plated.

What I see on your brass is simply work-hardening from age.......it happens more to some rounds than others, due to how and where they're stored. They've gotten brittle, and can't handle the stress of firing. New brass would be a dandy idea, I think Starline still does runs of it, and their stuff is top-notch!

 

[J. R. WEEMS]

Had the same problem with early 32 MAG brass from Federal, both factory ammo, AND new unfired brass -- little by little the brass was weeded out, I had bought 10 boxes, -- I went with Starline, and never had another problem--- brass from Federal was just too thin period. I have never bought any more of their brass for anything--

 

[venomballistics]

The brass looks kinda odd to me.
Sorta dark like a 3rd firing.

 

[rwsmith]

Looks like.....

The temper of the brass is off or the brass itself is poor grade. If other ammo doesn't do this, I'd pin it on the ammo right away.

 

[Yorkie Man]

That is the brass, it looks very brittle. Remington makes it casings out of the same draw that they make their 223 casings from. I have fired hundreds of RP Max casings out of my rifle and I have never had one split.

 

[jmmitc06]

This is of course impossible to prove at this point since the cartridges have been removed from the cylinder, but I would be curious if the crack was in the same orientation (top of the cylinder, bottom of the cylinder, etc.) on every split. I'm as certain as I can be that it's a problem with the brass but the consistency in the length of the split makes me curious what other patterns could be gleaned from such an analysis.

 

[vipermd]

That is the brass, it looks very brittle. Remington makes it casings out of the same draw that they make their 223 casings from. I have fired hundreds of RP Max casings out of my rifle and I have never had one split.

This is not Remington brass, it was made by Jamison, and apparently loaded by Jamison according to the OP. Be Safe,

 

[Nemo288]

I concur with the consensus above: bad brass.

If you going to reload for your Max, try to get some Starline brass.
I have used their brass extensively in the 445 and have yet to see any problems.
Maybe a moot point, but the chambers in my DW Supermag are pretty good sized
and the fired brass is .01 bigger around than that from my Encore.
It has a minimal chamber that may extend the life of the brass.

If you want a REAL accurate and almost indestructable gun to fire the Max in, consider an Encore.
Bellm, SSK and Bullberry all make good ones.
Bellm specializes in the 357 Max and has barrels in stock.

I quit developing or even shooting much at all out of my DW.
It developed endshake more than once due, I suspect, to the
dinky part that holds the crane in the frame.
And the absurd loads we were using when these first came out
and there was no knowledge base.

You won't believe the velocity you can get out of a closed 12" barrel

If you need any other help with the big DW let me know and also consider joining the Dan Wesson Forum.
I have a few documents referring to the Supermags that are getting harder to find.

===
Nemo

 

[PatriotX]

Wow - that's a beautiful 7445 you have there, nemo!

My LGS is being very helpful with the issue, much more so than the manufacturer Jamison (Captech)

They are trying to acquire a replacement of the case purchased, or failing that, a refund.

Once again, I appreciate everyone's input on this issue.

 

[PatriotX]

The distributor for the LGS sent a call tag for the entire case of ammo, and I was given a refund.

There was no discussion, admission of a problem, or any other commentary forthcoming from the distributor.

Guess who's got two thumbs and is looking for more 357 max ? THIS GUY!

 

[fredj338]

Definitely brittle brass. How old I th ammo? I had some once fired 357mag that had been sitting for about 10yrs. 75% split like that. Glad the lgs did you right.

 

[Nemo288]

BellmTCs has just announced they are selling 357 max ammo.
This outfit is considered one of, if not THE, leading gunsmiths and developers of TC arms and ammo.
If I was buy from a custom maker, they would be one I would go to.
I am having them build me a 444 barrel but that's another story.

.357 Remington Maximum Loaded Ammo

The ammo is listed as for handgun or rifle use.
Subscribe to their newsletter.
That's how I found out about the ammo.

===
Nemo (the TC is a S&W guy)

 

[chief38]

I've never shot or owned a .357 Supermax BUT I would say virgin Brass splitting like that is either too thin or poorly manufactured - assuming that the spec's on the gun are within tolerances. I'd either try another brand of cartridge or reload some Starline Brass (assuming they do make it in that caliber).

 

[Peter M. Eick]

It is bad brass. Email Remington a copy of the picture and lot number and they will replace it.

Same lot I am sure. They sent me 500 pieces as replacement to the 500 piece lot I had ordered. Very apologetic also in their letter.

 

[PatriotX]

I finally received an update of sorts.

Jameson admitted that the returned ammo had been loaded a bit "too warm."

I have since shot some vintage Remington ammo, as well as some new production ammo using Jameson brass with zero issues.

Thanks again to all the folks who contributed to this thread - I appreciate it.