Strange day with Lil Gun in 32 H&R

[buck460XVR]

Due to the known problems of the premature and excessive forcing cone erosion it causes, I have not used Lil' Gun in my revolvers for several years. When I did use Lil' Gun, what I found was it liked heavy for caliber bullets and a heavy crimp to perform best. That said, There could be a myriad of reasons for the results you are having. As for the decrease in velocity from XTPs to plated. Could be fit to bore as the tighter the fit, the more pressure create, thus higher velocity with the XTPs. Seating to longer OAL and decreasing the amount of bullet in the case may reduce pressure also, thus reducing velocity. Do the plated bullets have a cannelure? Slow burning magnum powders like Lil' Gun do best when combined with a heavy crimp to help with ignition. Many times plated revolver bullets do not have a cannelure and cannot take the heavy crimp needed for slow burning powders. Thus velocity suffers. As for the big spread in velocities, were cases trimmed to length? While many folks clam they never trim handgun cases, IME, trimming revolver cases used for max charged magnum rounds using slow burning powders so that crimp is consistent, gives me the most consistent velocities and accuracy. This is my next question, how was accuracy. Far too many times I see folks more interested in the velocities they are getting than with the accuracy of the loads. Myself personally, will give up a little velocity in favor of increased accuracy. Another reason for the larger spread in velocities may be the consistency of the plated bullets themselves. Many "plinker" type plated bullets are not as precisely made as precision bullets like the XTPs and vary more in weight and dimension. Kinda why they are priced lower. As for losing velocity as the powder charge is increased, this is a common phenomenon with handgun cartridges, especially when using slow burning powders. Whenever I see this, I know there is little point in continuing to increase the powder charge.

 

[wrangler5]

The plated bullets do not have a cannelure. And I've read warnings in the past about not crimping plated bullets too hard - so I didn't. As for the cases, they were not trimmed, but were measured and selected to fall within a 0.004" spread in the middle of the trim-to/maximum case length range.

Another thing I noticed upon looking back over my Lil Gun tests is that when I first tried the XTPs and loaded them over lower charges, the results with 9.5g (which is below Hodgdon's recommended starting load) were less than 100fps slower than with the 11.8g charge. Just another "way too strange" nail in the coffin of this powder for this application, for me.

Stu, you're right about this being a lot of the fun of reloading for me these days. Just wish it didn't have to involve a 2 hour round trip drive to the range each time. And as for 1-hole groups at 25 yards - well, on a good day I can do that with a rifle on a solid bench with a good scope. But I'm always shocked to see what the laser dot does at only 7 yards before I light one off. My best loads put 5 shots in a 1.25" target dot with a 2 handed hold. (I did manage a 2" group at 15 yards the other day with a 432PD from a rest - with a green laser grip assist.)

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Wrangler 5, I'm going to echo the concerns posted by buck460XVR. I would not be using Lil'gun in my revolvers.

When you did your tests did you notice how very hot the gun was?

Add the fact Lil'Gun is a very slow powder for what you are doing I suggest it's a bad choice. Your tests are telling you it's not the right choice. Velocities staying the same or dropping when you increase powder charges is telling you to choose a different powder that is somewhat faster.

I would give Longshot, W572, HS-6, Power Pistol and maybe 2400 a try instead.

 

[stu1ritter]

wrengler5, now we are getting somewhere. Just a data point, I've been working on my 431PD for about a year now trying to get a cast load that shoots to POA. I've tried full wadcutters, SWC's, and some jacketed and nothing has worked. I've probably tried 15 powders. Finally, I bought one of the 115gr. NOE Keith molds, cast up a bunch and voila'. 50 ft. This was a 6 o'clock hold. 4.0 gr. SR4756 turned out to be the load that did it. It's on the warm side but I haven't chrono'd it yet, but will shortly. This was initially very frustrating to get this revolver to shoot to POA but the feeling of success is really nice. It was shooting 4" right and 4-5" low with everything I tried.

Stu

 

[Erich]

Ah, our old friend SR 4756.

Hey, folks, thanks for a neat thread. I have nothing to contribute, as I don't load for this caliber (though I do put together .32 S&W Long loads from Sharpe's book for my Improved I-frame and my swingout H&R, and they're pretty fantastic), but I sure am enjoying it.

 

[Krogen]

<snip>
When you did your tests did you notice how very hot the gun was?
<snip>

While I'm not the OP, I'd like to comment on this. When I used Lil' gun in my M16-4, the heat it produced was hard to ignore. Compared to other powders loaded to similar velocities, the heating of the gun was striking. I figured it couldn't be good and quit using the powder in 32 H&R.

 

[H Richard]

Stu, be sure to post your chrono results. I load a lot of cast bullets in my I Frames, and one particular 115 gr. FNL from Missouri Bullet Co does very well, but after 50 or so I tend to get a little leading just past the forcing cone. But it is so much fun to see those 1 hole groups at 10-15 yards you hate to quit. I have never gotten into the bullet casting, so rely on what I can buy. The MO Bullet Co rounds are "optimized" for cowboy action and I'm guessing are a little too soft for what I am pushing them.

 

[stu1ritter]

Will do Dick. My range is closed this week for lead removal on both sides but I should be able to get over there beginning of next week. I'm very curious also. I expect some leading but not sure. I usually cast around bhn 11 and I think these might need to be cast a bit harder which I can do on the next batch. There was a little bit evident in the 16-4 when I tested them but none in the 431.

Stu

 

[wrangler5]

The 32s I'm most concerned with are 2" J frames that I (and, hopefully, my wife) will carry, and all of 'em have Crimson Trace laser grips. So shooting to the sights isn't a huge consideration - they're adjustable. And even with the irons, the maximum expected operating distance is 7-10 yards and my target is roughly the 6-8" -0- scoring "rings" of the IDPA target.

I do have a 3" 31-1 that I have reamed to take 32 H&R cases, and I'm working on a load that has some more punch than a 32 Long and still shoots to the sights on that gun (it wears a Pachmayr Compac grip, not a CT laser.) It tends to shoot low and to the right with the 100g coated lead "practice" rounds I make up with 4.7g of #5. Plans are to see if a 115g coated lead bullet will bring the POI up a bit, as I would expect it to do. Not sure what to do about the windage.

BTW, I have found that the coated lead bullets shoot VERY clean in my guns, leaving practically nothing on the cylinder faces and nothing but unburned powder (sometimes) in the barrels. I've used MO Bullet, ACME and SNS brands, all with the same results. SNS used to offer gold bullets, which helped to keep different loads straight once they were out of their marked boxes, but everybody seems to be using red now. (Apparently anything that might even look like copper gets extra scrutiny at Cowboy Action matches, which require lead-only bullets, so red coating keeps the ammo cops at bay. Sigh.)

 

[Eddie Southgate]

I don't load or shoot the 32H&R mag, but I have done a lot with 32-20 and 32 S&W Long. After having Little gun blow the sides out of 218 Bee on their first loading with 8% less than max loads, I avoid it like the plague!

The Hornady XTP bullets did a really good job from 32-20 in 4" and 6" revolvers. As do the cast 115/117 32-20 bullets.

Ivan

When did you have this happen with the Bee ? They had an early batch of Little Gun that was mixed with Titegroup .

Eddie

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have heard a lot if things about Lil'Gun, both positive and negative but high or spiking pressures isn't one of them. As a matter if fact, high velocities at lower than expected pressures is one if it's claims to fame.

Are you sure it was the fault if the powder in this case? Lil'Gun has singlehandedly brought back the 22 Hornet because if the increased velocity and fairly low pressures.

 

[zeke]

Tried lil-gun in Ruger single six32 mag years ago, with Speer 100 gn jhp.

And yes velocity's fattened out, even lessoned at certain point before climbing very slightly up. Decided it was not worth it for the extra 25 fps and very quick top strap erosion. Did end up with very accurate load, but not equal velocity to what is described for buffalo bore plus p.

Switched to 85 gn xtp and n-110 for slightly less velocity, equal accuracy and predictable pressure curve (by velocity) pressure.

 

[3pshooter]

LilGun and the 32 H&R

For me, it flattened at 11.2 Gr. Going higher did not significantly raise the velocity. Shot from Ruger Single Six, 100 gr xtp, WSP, it averaged 1270 fps. I mostly shoot hunters supply 115 lead bullets cause the POI and POA is on at 25 yds, I use 231 powder/550 primers and keep it under 1000 fps. It's fun to shoot, but when I feel the "need for speed" out comes the S&W .357.

 

[stu1ritter]

Apologies for taking so long to post chrono results on my 32H&R SR 4756 loads. The load is 4.0 gr. of SR4756 under the 115 gr. NOE Keith style SWC
In my 16-4 4" barrel 778fps ES30 SD10
In my 431PD 673fps ES57 SD22
All strings 10 shots. There was light to moderate primer flattening with easy extraction so I think there is still some room to play.

Stu

 

[wrangler5]

Here's another 115g data point:

SNS Casting LRNFP over 2.6g Titegroup out of a 2" 30-1 that has been reamed to take 32 H&R.

Avg Vel 663fps, ES 18, SD 6.0 - right up there with the best ES and SD I've seen in all my H&R loads.

Hodgdon doesn't offer any load data for 115g bullets in 32 H&R, but 2.6g of Titegroup is below their recommended start load for a 100g JHP, so I don't feel like it's too far past the hairy edge.

 

[stu1ritter]

I would sure like to see some other load suggestions for the 115 Keith style. There is very little load data available for this on line.

thanks,

Stu