Straw Purchase?

jgh4445

jgh4445

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I'm thinking its not but I want to see what folks here say.

Can I purchase a firearm on say, gunbroker, as a gift for a family member and pay for it with my credit card or check or money order and have it shipped to an FFL FOR my family member? IOW, I pay for it and instruct the seller ( also an FFL) to send it to an FFL out of his state and ask that it be sent in someone elses name ( not mine). Ex: please ship item number xxxxx to XYZ gun shop to be held for John Doe, family member. XYZ gunshop will of course send a copy of their FFL to the shipper. Then, John Doe goes in, fills out the 4473, has the NICS check run and takes his birthday present home. All I did was pay for it. Legal or Straw?

My thinking:

The seller doesn't care (and doesn't have to care) who the payment comes from, he's going to ship to a legitimate FFL when he receives the copy of their current FFL. After that, transferring the firearm is up to the receiving FFL. The receiving FFL shouldn't care who paid for it, they are doing the paperwork and the check on the person actually picking the firearm up. That person will also pay the transfer fee. Am I correct?
 
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Well...I'm not a lawyer, and I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn Express...so, take this opinion for what it's worth.

IMO, a "straw purchase" is made when you buy a gun on behalf of someone who can't legally buy one for themselves, knowingly in order to circumvent the approval process. In the case you propose, unless otherwise prohibited by state law, I'd say it was legitimate and not a straw purchase, especially since the recipient will complete a 4473 and get approval in order to receive the gun.

Before you do this, though, I would check with the receiving FFL and make sure there are no issues on that end.

AND...if you want a test case, you can send me a gun. I'll let you know how it goes. :)
 
I don't think it would be a straw purchase, but the seller might.

It'd be like, me and you meet up in Dothan, and for some reason I have decided to give you a pistol. Gonna give you a Colt 1911. Boy you're lucky. So me and thee go to a gun shop, and because you're a revolver guy and don't know nothin' about 1911s, I pick through all the choices, find the one that I think is the best in the shop (that I can afford) and say, "This 'un. He'll do the paperwork, cause the gun's for him", and lay my VISA on the counter. I couldn't do the paperwork. I'm Florida, not Alabama.

What I am describing is perfectly legal. But any gun-seller with one eye and half sense would think STRAW PURCHASE!!, and that we were using your license to get the gun for me.
 
Alpo said:
I don't think it would be a straw purchase, but the seller might.

It'd be like, me and you meet up in Dothan, and for some reason I have decided to give you a pistol. Gonna give you a Colt 1911. Boy you're lucky. So me and thee go to a gun shop, and because you're a revolver guy and don't know nothin' about 1911s, I pick through all the choices, find the one that I think is the best in the shop (that I can afford) and say, "This 'un. He'll do the paperwork, cause the gun's for him", and lay my VISA on the counter. I couldn't do the paperwork. I'm Florida, not Alabama.

What I am describing is perfectly legal. But any gun-seller with one eye and half sense would think STRAW PURCHASE!!, and that we were using your license to get the gun for me.
Click to expand...

I think you're right...that a FFL would be concerned in your situation since you have a Florida license and are paying for a gun in Alabama. However, in the scenario that the OP described, both parties are in different locations, and both are going through FFLs to make the transaction...so, I don't see how that would be considered a straw purchase.

But then, once again, I am not a lawyer...and as the saying goes, the law may upset reason, but reason must not upset the law. (In other words, even if it don't make sense, the law is the law.)
 
Whats the statute of limitations? This took place 44 years ago. I had been looking for a s&w model 60. I was in a gunshop and asked if they had one. "Yup, we just got one in." I was at the same time talking to a off duty CHP about 4 of his co workers getting killed the prior day, in the infamous Newhall shootout.
Newhall massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I told the clerk to write me up for the gun. The off duty CHP told me, "Let me put it on my badge, you wont have to wait for it."
I just looked up that newhall shooting and it happened exactly 44 years ago today!
 
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Why not just give the family member the $$$ to pay the seller? That way there should be no questions about straw purchase or who lives where.
 
The person picking up the gun answers that first question in this case the OPs relative or friend.

I go to the gun shop with one of my adult children. I say pick out the gun you want. They find one and fill out the 4473 I pay for it cause I am a nice Dad.:D

Same thing only the OP bought it somewhere else and it got transferred. It's paid for the picker upper:) fills out the background check.
 
When you pay the seller, you become the actual buyer. The seller sends to another FFL and 11a is still the clear test. It states that you are not the actual buyer if you are buying the firearm on behalf of another person.
 
The first question (11a) on Form 4473 askes if you are the actual buyer? If the answer is no, the FFL can not transfer the firearm.
Click to expand...

In this case, the person picking it up is not the purchaser, but is the TRANSFEREE, so 11(a) is a yes.
The true litmus in this case is the person filling out the 4473 is not doing so for another person.
 
Is the recipient over 18 years of age? If the answer is yes, then what you propose is perfectly legal.

The key to the "straw man" purchase hinges on whether or not the recipient can legally own the gun. Be up front with the seller and tell them what you intend. They may not be OK with it.

However, the easiest way is to use a local FFL that you know. Buy the gun and have it shipped to your local FFL. When it arrives, you can take possession of it or not, but then have the FFL ship it to your relative's FFL. Then your relative can just go into the store and pick it up. They may have to pay a transfer fee or whatever the local FFL requires, but they won't have to pay for the gun. Of course you could always send them a check to cover any fees as well.

As stated before, what you propose is not a straw man purchase as long as the recipient can legally own the gun.

Here is some reading from the ATF: https://www.atf.gov/search/site/purchase a gun as a gift
 
There is a case before the Supreme Court right now that involves your fact pattern.

The government's position: illegal straw purchase.

We'll have to see what the Court decides.
 
glowe said:
When you pay the seller, you become the actual buyer. The seller sends to another FFL and 11a is still the clear test. It states that you are not the actual buyer if you are buying the firearm on behalf of another person.
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This is a common misinterpretation of the wording.

Our shop did exactly this scenario (gun bought and paid for in our shop, we transferred to the out of state FFL, and the new owner picked up the gun with a 4473.)

Our attorney (a firearm specific firm) was consulted and he said that it is perfectly legal.

The legal intent of the law is to prevent one from passing a background check for another who cannot.

Where the money comes from has no impact on the legality of a gun sale, however transfer must be done via BATFE 4473, by the person who will own/posses/use the gun.
 
Who is filling out the paperwork? It's not a straw purchase if you are just paying for it. It's simply your money and that's it. The person receiving will do all the paperwork at the ffl. If you are also doing the paperwork I dunno

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Rastoff said:
Is the recipient over 18 years of age? If the answer is yes, then what you propose is perfectly legal.

The key to the "straw man" purchase hinges on whether or not the recipient can legally own the gun. Be up front with the seller and tell them what you intend. They may not be OK with it.

However, the easiest way is to use a local FFL that you know. Buy the gun and have it shipped to your local FFL. When it arrives, you can take possession of it or not, but then have the FFL ship it to your relative's FFL. Then your relative can just go into the store and pick it up. They may have to pay a transfer fee or whatever the local FFL requires, but they won't have to pay for the gun. Of course you could always send them a check to cover any fees as well.

As stated before, what you propose is not a straw man purchase as long as the recipient can legally own the gun.

Here is some reading from the ATF: https://www.atf.gov/search/site/purchase%20a%20gun%20as%20a%20gift
Click to expand...

I think, actually, it's whether he can legally BUY the gun.

For example, if I want to Alabama, I could not BUY a pistol. If I got jgh4445 to buy it for me, because he is an Alabama resident, that's a straw purchase. I can OWN the pistol. I just can't BUY IT in Alabama.

Or if you buy a pistol for a 20-year-old. If he's 18, he can OWN IT, but if he's under 21, he can't BUY IT from an FFL. And you buying it for him, to circumvent the "gotta be 21" law, is a straw purchase.
 
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Alpo said:
I think, actually, it's whether he can legally BUY the gun.
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Excellent point and I believe you're right about this.

Also, I just thought of something. This whole discussion is moot because the gun will be shipped to an FFL in another state. When the recipient of this "gift" goes to get the gun, in essence he will be buying it from the FFL even if he doesn't pay any money for it. So, he will have to fill out a 4473 anyway. Thus, he is the one purchasing the gun at that time. Because he will be filling out the paperwork, there is nothing being circumvented, thus, not a straw purchase.
 
Let's say my son moved to Texas.

I call him a month before his birthday, tell him I want to buy him a new rifle for his birthday, and ask him what he would like to have. He tells me. I tell him to locate an FFL that will accept the transfer, and give him my FFL info to have his FFL info sent to.

I go to my FFL, pay for the gun he wants, and he ships it to the FFL in Texas, where my son goes in, fills out the paperwork, does the background check, and takes the gun.

I didn't make a straw purchase and the OP's scenario isn't one either. He just bought it through GunBroker instead of a local shop.
 
Purchase involves money or other items of value exchanged. I know that people have "always done it this way" as far as gifting goes. The Feds changed their minds a while back about it.

If you are not the buyer, you can not fill out the paperwork.

As another posted stated, this is being taken to court. But, this is what the Feds say NOW. Their rules you have to play by.
 
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