SW99 Business/Engineering/Historical Significance to S&W?

TTSH

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As one who, through no fault of his own, missed the late-1980's, the 1990's and most of the 2000's... I would like to ask about the overall significance to Smith & Wesson of the SW99 Series. By this I mean the business-side significance ($$$ made or lost), the effect on plastic pistol engineering (if any) and the historical significance (good or bad/smart or foolish) in terms of company direction/failure/success with its semi-autos generally.

I found this on another website:

"Smith & Wessons Sigma never really hit it off, being targeted for a market in which the Glock rules supreme. A redesign of the Sigma to incorporate a normal double action mechanism was not possible, and so S&W looked for other avenues to build a new gun. Their chance came through a combining of talent with the German firm of Walther. The Walther P99 is a good gun, but rather expensive, due to being build in Germany and having to be exported to the USA. The deal S&W made with Walther was that Walther would make the frames of the guns, and S&W would make the slide and barrel of the new gun. A few cosmetic changes were made to the P99 design, and the result is the SW99. This gun combines the quality and the innovation of the Walther P99 with the affordability of a gun made in the USA, and it looks like it can be a winner. Unlike the Sigma the gun is of very good fit and finish (it should, it is after all essentially a German design...), and it is made in both 9 mm and .40 S&W calibers."

Is this a fair and accurate (albeit abbreviated) description?

In short, I'm trying to figure out how significant was the effect of the SW99 Series partnership with Walther on Smith & Wesson's semi-auto market future. Large, small or impossible to know? How much hope did S&W place on these guns? Were they to be the future? Or were they only intended to be a stop-gap measure? Or is the real story somewhere in-between or more complicated than that?

Is there much modern pistol collector interest in the SW99 Series? Or is it seen as an isolated business opportunity outside the mainstream of S&W's primary business direction, products and plans?

Any info on this is greatly appreciated. If anyone can direct me to any books or articles of significance regarding these questions, please do so. Thank you!
 
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I was way into guns when the Walther and SW99 were introduced. The main historical significance of the Walther is that it was the first pistol with an adjustable grip circumferance via interchangeable backstraps. Other than that, the SW99 is just the Walther rebranded, and has never really had any serious consideration as an innovative step in S&W's history. It also came out during the time that S&W was reviled for cutting deals with the Clinton admin, a very low point in the brand's (not the company, because all S&W is now is a brand that has been sold and resold at least half a dozen times) history. For polymer guns, the sea change in market perception for S&W came with the introduction of the M&P.

As a side topic, I had one of the original SW40Fs and it was a decent gun, I loved it and the guy I sold it to owned it and loved it from 1997 to the day he died in 2012.

Posted from my car phone.
 
I was way into guns when the Walther and SW99 were introduced. The main historical significance of the Walther is that it was the first pistol with an adjustable grip circumferance via interchangeable backstraps. Other than that, the SW99 is just the Walther rebranded, and has never really had any serious consideration as an innovative step in S&W's history. It also came out during the time that S&W was reviled for cutting deals with the Clinton admin, a very low point in the brand's (not the company, because all S&W is now is a brand that has been sold and resold at least half a dozen times) history. For polymer guns, the sea change in market perception for S&W came with the introduction of the M&P.

As a side topic, I had one of the original SW40Fs and it was a decent gun, I loved it and the guy I sold it to owned it and loved it from 1997 to the day he died in 2012.

Posted from my car phone.
Thanks very much! This is exactly the kind of insight that I've been seeking. While I didn't mention them specifically, I'm especially interested in the political and ownership change issues as they relate to this period and, if at all, with this deal with Walther.

Is there any evidence that S&W engineers benefited from the SW99 Series relationship with Walther in terms of furthering their own plastic gun designs... either in a general way or any specific ways? Or is the feeling that these were isolated products protected by Walther patents and agreements that would have made that impossible or at least unlikely.

Thanks very much for your help! :)
 
My own perception is that during that time anyone I knew considerend that S&W had given up, defeated by the polymer market, but still wanted a presence on store shelves in that niche. As for design elements, I'm not enough of an engineer to know if their engineers got anything useful out of licensing the Walther design, I'll leave that to more knowledgable Smith historians.

Glad to help!

Posted from my car phone.
 
My own perception is that during that time anyone I knew considered that S&W had given up, defeated by the polymer market, but still wanted a presence on store shelves in that niche. As for design elements, I'm not enough of an engineer to know if their engineers got anything useful out of licensing the Walther design, I'll leave that to more knowledgeable Smith historians.

Glad to help!

Posted from my car phone.
Excellent! Thank you again! :)
 
It's been some years since SW and Walther entered into their Strategic Alliance, but as I recall reading and being told (during my first SW99/P99 armorer class), Walther (or the other company, Umarex) had originally wanted to make a licensed version of a revolver air pistol, for European sales, which was owned by S&W.

Part of their agreement & business alliance let S&W make a licensed copy of the P99 series, which gave them a newer plastic pistol to sell above their Sigma budget line, and which S&W called the SW99. S&W reserved the right to also make the QA (SW99QA) and DAO (SW990), although I never saw any, myself. Mentioned in the safety manuals, though.

They did make a weird version of the SW99 for the NJSP at one point, which was the standard configuration sear action (Anti-Stress), but without a decocking button on the slide, at the demand of the agency (and against the recommendation of the company, we were told). That's a story for another day, but suffice to say were told that the reports of the gun being dropped due to functioning issues wasn't confirmed when S&W sent the guns to HP White Labs for independent testing (and purchased a LOT of duty ammo for the testing).

My second SW99 armorer manual actually included the SW99NJ (due to its different disassembly, and lacking the decocking button), and perhaps for that reason it may have some collector value someday. ;)

S&W eventually requested a model variation of the QA sear action, which was numbered as the SW990L. When it was first being discussed (in my 3rd SW99 armorer class?), we were told the informal designation of the new version might be called the SW990Lightning (Quick Action trigger), but I never heard it referred to as that once the guns were being shipped. Just the SW99L, with the appropriate caliber/model identifier (SW990L40, SW990L45, etc). Oddly enough, for reasons known only to them, they decided not to incorporate the field-stripping button like the Walther QA had in its slide.

One interesting bit of trivia were given in one class was that after the lengthy discussions involved before S&W could convince Walther to design the larger framed .45 ACP model, they also apparently designed a revision for the new frame to permit the optional inclusion of a magazine safety (if requested by any agencies). We were told there weren't any examples of such a gun available, and that Walther would only make the frames (molded differently to accept the additional mag safety feature) if an order was placed for them. I never heard of any being ordered, to my knowledge (limited).

The SW99's incorporated some interesting changes from the Walther frames. I'll probably forget some of them this many years later, but I think those changes included a different accessory rail; different frame tang (flat, instead of pointed/hooked like the Walther version); different frame texture; different relief position for the thumb, front grip frame clearance to make it easier to grasp the mag foot to withdraw a stuck mag; and the use of the optional heavier extractor spring (which was also used for the mag catch, and which became standard in later S&W models); longer & heavier slide stop lever spring.

S&W made the bare slides and barrels for their licensed models, with Walther supplying all the other parts for the slide and the frames.

Another interesting bit of trivia we were given at one point was that S&W engineers also eventually helped identify the cause of the "early-slide stop" problems that affected early production P99 .40's and the SW9940's. They used their high-speed imaging to identify how the top rounds were being displaced leftward under recoil, bumping the slide stop lever's inner tab up into the slide during cycling, which could lock back the slide with rounds remaining in the mag. Walther had MecGar redesign the .40 mag body & followers to prevent this sort of wiggle.

S&W made some continual revisions and refinements to their slides and barrels. I saw ongoing changes to the feedramps, the chamber mouths, the muzzles and the bottom side of the barrel. This last revision apparently occurred in stages, as I saw different lengths of the new machined flat in later production barrels. The purpose, (we were told) was to create some clearance between the bottom of the barrel, at the rear, and the top of the recoil spring, when the gun was cycling. More clearance, less contact between the slide and the top of the spring coils. Ever hear a funny 'scrunchy" sound as you slowly hand cycle (an empty pistol & mag) some of the different makes of plastic pistols? That's usually caused by the top edges of the spring's rear coils rubbing against the bottom of the barrel before the barrel has been cammed back up into battery. (Also making it a good idea to rub some of that drop of oil applied to the barrel's exterior, down and around the bottom of the barrel.)

Walther wasn't sitting still, either, as they made some ongoing revisions and changes to their own models. They adopted the frame tang profile (which no longer had the pointed/hook that could press down into the web of the shooter's hand); the trigger guard profile changed; they changed their slide profile; the accessory rail (making it the more common type, to better accept a wider variety of accessories); polished their extractor hooks; dressed the locking blocks; introduced an ambi slide stop assembly; lengthened the mag catch levers; made a trigger change; and made some other design changes inside the frame.

I only discovered one of these last changes when I tried to replace an older sear housing block (broken ejector, which is molded into the caliber-specific housing block), and I discovered the dimensions of the new housing block was different, and the new sleeve pin wouldn't fit inside the older style frame. After discussing it with the factory, I had to substitute the sleeve pin from the older housing block into the new block.

You can see some of the differences between these spare sear blocks (viewed from bottom).


Walther typically doesn't want even armorers disassembling the sear housing block (and for good reason). They do, however, provide armorers with instructions to reinstall the smaller plastic pin that holds the sear lever & its spring in the block ... because that pin can fall out, releasing a sear lever & spring if the block is removed from the gun during an armorer inspection and tipped on its left side. Or, when a repair block is shipped in a plastic envelope. (Ask me how I learned that the hard way when ordering some new blocks. :eek: )

Another change in more recent years was the trigger bar guide post (located on the right/front lower corner of the housing block) being changed to an adjustable lever (on the right side of the housing block). The 2 trigger bar guide designs, and the sear housing blocks in which they're used, are NOT interchangeable between frame styles (and should NEVER be tampered with by someone not trained to work on the 99 guns, anyway).

Walther introduced some newer & tighter fitting rear sights in the subsequent 99's, too (including the PPQ variation). It uses a steel clamping sleeve in a steel sight base, instead of the plunger/spring used to hold the plastic sight in the dovetail.

When the Walther/S&W importation part of their strategic alliance expired last year, Walther decided to become their own importer and set up a US office on the East Coast. S&W still makes the PPk for them for US sales, and last I heard, Walther makes the frame (and some or all of the frame components?) for the M&P 22. I haven't kept up on any of the recent changes, though. Walther has (had?) another licensing agreement with another international business partner & firearms company to make yet another licensed 99 for US sales, BTW.

Now, looking at what S&W engineers seemed to have learned from the Sigma line (it's been many years since I took a Sigma armorer class, so I'm pretty far out-of-date on them), and then their association with Walther and the SW99/990L series guns, I can see where their eventual decision to make their own new polymer pistol probably benefited from all that experience.

This is a subject that could be discussed for hours, and just about every time I called to ask someone in the various S&W depts (repair, customer service, armorer training, etc) or their Walther America company, I learned something new and interesting. I also heard some often contradictory info, too, so it sometimes took repeated attempts to get something clarified. ;)

Bottom line? The SW99 series guns are pretty decent, and are very under valued.

Now that Walther is going to be importing its own guns, maybe they'll start shipping more of them to the US, and increase their service and parts support. It would be nice if they eventually decided to extend the same sort of limited lifetime warranty, like they have for their American buyers of the PPQ, to the rest of their model line. A 1-year warranty isn't exactly competitive in today's American firearms market, in my humble opinion, anyway.

I know I sometimes had to wait for the "next" delivery of parts to be shipped from Carl Walther Germany, which apparently shipped at their convenience. :)

I thought it was pretty decent of S&W to offer their limited lifetime warranty to their licensed SW99's, even to covering the Walther components. Dunno what they're doing now, or that it's going to mean now that they've closed down the Walther America company and dispersed the guys from the SW99/990L production to elsewhere in the plant.

I know they still offer an armorer class for the SW99, and that at least a small number of LE/Gov users are still using them (even though S&W has probably offered to upgrade any existing 99 agencies to the M&P).

Okay, enough rambling off the top of my head.
 
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Great insights, thank you for taking the time to share that. This why I love this board...

Posted from my car phone.
 
Okay, enough rambling off the top of my head.
Fastbolt, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to lay all of that out. That is the best in-depth history of the SW99 Series and related issues that I have ever seen published. Nothing else I'm aware of even comes close. :)

For the record, I had already gone though your older excellent in-depth posts on the SW99 series, but they were mostly user/owner and maintenance/armorer-oriented. You've now given me the rest of the story and everything fits together very nicely. :)

I've actually printed out this latest post (along with your past posts) to study it all more closely as I cannot do justice to it just reading it off the net.

I'm repeating myself now... but for unfortunate reasons, I missed out on almost all of the history relating to S&W's journey from its 1st Gen semi-autos (with which I am generally familiar) through to its current M&P series. I have been playing a very large game of catch-up for the past year now. Some aspects have been easier to research and understand than others... but, to me, the SW99 Series and how it fit in always remained the biggest mystery of all. Thank you again for your extremely valuable help. :)
 
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I nominate this thread for preservation - the information in it is too good to let slip off into the void.

Can we have this moved to the "Notable Thread" section?
 
You're welcome, but those are just some of the highlights I remember from the classes and discussions with reps and other folks over the years. Just imagine what I didn't have the time and opportunity to learn. ;)

FWIW, one of the things it seems S&W gained from their association with Walther was to include a secondary spring in the striker assembly, which is the striker return spring. This helps keep the striker from making unnecessary & excessive contact with the safety block.

Also, the compact 99 guns used a locking block that incorporated the frame rails in the block, instead of as frame rail tab inserts, molded into the frame. I don't know why Walther didn't do that with the larger guns. Putting the frame rail tabs in the steel locking block made it easy to replace them if ever broken.

S&W went one step further in their M&P, though, and put the rear frame rails in the sear housing block. This means that in the event of any frame rail tab breakage, the rails could be replaced at the armorer level without having to replace an entire frame.
 
I nominate this thread for preservation - the information in it is too good to let slip off into the void.

Can we have this moved to the "Notable Thread" section?
I second that motion! :)
 
I second that motion! :)

Let's not get carried away guys.

That sort of odds & ends bits of trivia may be interesting to some folks, but it's not anything that needs to be set aside and preserved.
 
Oh I don't know, it always seemed the 99 series never got the credit it deserved. I have one in .40 and consider it a real sleeper!
But hey I'm just a shooter, what do I know.
Dale
 
Walther did set the bar for replaceable backstrap inserts, but none of the 3 choices on the standard size guns ever really comfortably conformed to the middle of my palm. I've gone back & forth between the med/sml inserts over the years.

The newer ones look like a better effort, but I haven't handled them.

The small compact 99 frame actually feels more like a single stack than a double stack gun, and the small insert makes the gun too small for my medium-size hands.

S&W took the basic idea and greatly improved upon it in the M&P, not only making the backstrap profile more accommodating to a lot of folks, but changing the grip width profile (palm swell), as well.
 
Carry the SW99c .40 daily..I'm a fan! Thanks for the insight and knowledge sharing@!
 
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