Terminal Ballistics Testing

[KSCowboy]

Over the past few years I've been testing some of my self defense loads in 1 gallon water jugs lined up in a row inside a wooden trough to hold them in place on impact. Here are my latest results.

Model 24-3 3". 44 Special case, 12.0 grains Blue Dot, Alberts 230 grain swaged SWC-HP. I've not chrono'd from this 3" gun but out of my 4 incher velocity is 1001 fps. Original bullet weight 229.2 grains, recovered bullet 227.8 grains. Bullet came to rest inside jug #4.

Model 19-5 2.5". 357 Mag case, 13.2 grains 2400, Cast Lee 150 grain SWC-HP. I have not chrono'd this load, need a new chrono. Original bullet weight 149.5 grains, recovered bullet 129 grains. Bullet came to rest inside jug #4, with HP fragment in jug #1.

Colt Detective Special 2". 38 Special +P+ case, 5.4 grains Unique, Cast Lee 150 grain SWC-HP. Original bullet weight 149.5 grains, recovered bullet 133.5 grains. Several HP fragments in jug #1, bullet came to rest inside jug #5.

Springfield 1911 Compact 4". 45 acp case, 6.6 grains Unique, 230 grain Winchester JHP. Chrono'd at 824 fps. Original bullet weight 228.5 grains, recovered bullet 223.8 grains. Small jacket fragment in Jug #1, bullet came to rest in jug #3.

Springfield 1911 Compact 4". 45 acp case, 6.6 grains Unique, 230 grain Hornady XTP. Chrono'd at 831 fps. Original bullet weight 228.4 grains, recovered bullet 228.2 grains. Bullet came to rest in jug #4

These are the guns I carry the most so I've been saving jugs to test them all on the same day.

 

[Will Carry]

If you ever get attacked by one gallon jugs, I want to be standing behind you. . It would appear that the old school 44 special is the winner. I have said it before. The 44 special is under rated. Thanks for posting that. If I reloaded I think I would carry the 44 special.

 

[papajohn428]

Interesting results, with bullets I don't normally shoot. I have an entire kitchen full of empty milk jugs awaiting testing in similar fashion, backed up by wetpack testing. I've been collecting 45ACP defensive loads for a year, and will be testing some 40 S&W Gold Dots and various 38 loads as well. I tested 44 loads several years ago, and the Gold Dots and W-W Silvertips were the clear winners.

 

[off road]

Water jugs are great fun (!), but they will overstate expansion and understate penetration. The human body is mostly water, but especially the lungs, are nowhere near 100% water like a jug is. Throw in bone and clothing that will pack up your hollow point cavities and prevent any expansion, and you are kind of wasting your time! Don't rely on any of your results, in the real world.... http://www.brassfetcher.com/40S&W JHP performance against Bone Simulant and Ballistic Gelatin.pdf

 

[KSCowboy]

off road you are absolutely correct. These tests are for comparison testing only as it is the best medium I have to work with.

 

[APS]

off road you are absolutely correct. These tests are for comparison testing only as it is the best medium I have to work with.

I'm curious, what do the results mean to you as the tester?

 

[KSCowboy]

The results to me indicate a base line from which to begin testing on live critters. Then compare any recovered bullets from them to the water jug bullets.

 

[off road]

These test sould be fairly valid for comparing the relative differences between bullet materials and designs, as long as you keep in mind that they will probably not expand nearly as much in any living organism.

 

[38-44HD45]

These test sould be fairly valid for comparing the relative differences between bullet materials and designs, as long as you keep in mind that they will probably not expand nearly as much in any living organism.

That may or may not be true. Some bullet designs that expand well in tissue don't expand at all in water, or only do so sporadically. The first generation of .45ACP Hydra-Shoks is one of the best examples. It performed well in tissue, but rarely expanded in water, and often lost its jacket when it did. I've shot lots of expanding bullets into water-filled plastic jugs over the years. What the results mean to me is based upon how various loads behave in comparison to rounds with known street results. For instance, the Remington .357 125gr. SJHP load always expands and fragments, whether shooting "bare" jugs or through a few layers of denim, with the larger pieces stopping in the third 1 gallon jug. For me, given the known "stopping" record of that load, that is a meaningful baseline from which to compare. I don't assume any given results in tissue from water jug shooting results, but comparisons can be meaningful.

 

[KSCowboy]

38-44

I ran out of jugs but I have loaded in both 38 Special +P and 357 loads the Remington 125grain SJHP and am curious about them. In the 38 Special out of my wife's 3" M-64 they chrono at 965 fps. It is all the blast and recoil that she is willing to handle. Out of my 3" M-60 they chrono 1043 fps.

 

[38-44HD45]

Depending on the lot and the gun, I've gotten anywhere from about 1425fps. to well over 1500 fps. from the Remington .357 125/SJHP load in 4" barrels. It loses a lot in snubbies, but not as much as do Federal 125gr. JHPs, which typically drop to barely over 1200fps. in ca. 2" barrels. The Remingtons usually stay over 1300 in snubbies.

 

[WR Moore]

The gel test was interesting, BUT: humans don't have an exoskeleton. The bone simulant should have been inside the gel, not in front of it.

Water does come acceptably close to gel in producing relative expansion results. In comparison testing, my well water and milk jugs exactly duplicate the expansion of 9mm 147 gr Hydra-Shok in gel. To get correct penetration equivilent, divide your water distance by 1.55 to get the gel penetration.

 

[off road]

The gel test was interesting, BUT: humans don't have an exoskeleton. The bone simulant should have been inside the gel, not in front of it.

You are kind of splitting hairs! There is so little tissue over a rib or the sternum, it's pretty negligable....but yeah, there are some big fat guys out here. Don't discount heavy clothing either.

During my college years, I worked for the medical examiner of a large populous southwest county (heavy winter clothing was rare!). Later in my career, I taught human anatomy and physiology, for a few years. Mostly what we saw on chest shots, was that bullets tend to deform badly on the ribs or sternum, and fail to expand! (Admittedly....there are some much much better bullet designs/loads that have come out recently, than what there was back then.)

Any bullet will suffer badly on bone! For what it's worth...I load Glaser Silvers in my J-frame backup guns (.38+P...but very seriously considering a switch to .357), and Hornady Critical Defense or TAP/XTP in my main guns (mostly because I want at least some degree of medium barrier penetration). But....if you want to blow up a chest or have to make a gut shot, load Glasers!!!

 

[photoman]

Throw in bone and clothing that will pack up your hollow point cavities and prevent any expansion, and you are kind of wasting your time! Don't rely on any of your results, in the real world....

OK... Following that logic, since guns jam, we should not waste our time and leave them in the gun safe. Maybe a Swiss Army knife is the best weapon for self defense...

 

[venomballistics]

such testing is erroneous .. fun, but erroneous.
jugs give you a very rough idea of penetration and a deformed bullet.
neither are direct indicators of performance in man nor beast.
add some gelatin, yarn, bone and sponge to the mix and we get a good bit closer.
I wouldnt go by the expanded bullet for comparison.
what your looking for is a load that will penetrate the target, have little to nothing left over on the back side, and do most of its dirty work in the vital mass within the thoracic cavity. details that are hard to see and even harder to quantify and document.
Im not totally sold on HP's in 45 auto. it lives in an odd little pocket in the caliber range. too big to be a light round and too slow to over penetrate. Yeah, I have and make HPs for this one, but I find myself torn between a simple flat point and HPs with a leaning toward the flats.

 

[off road]

OK... Following that logic, since guns jam, we should not waste our time and leave them in the gun safe. Maybe a Swiss Army knife is the best weapon for self defense...

No.....didn't I say shooting jugs of water is great fun! Just don't read to much into the results.....