The classic Winchester lever gun of the old west

[Wayne02]

Been watching AMC today with some old westerns. In many of these the cowboys constant companion is of course the Winchester lever. Never far from their side, usually transported over distance via horse and scabbard. Even when moving from room to room inside a house they will take the rifle with them.

I have my grandfathers Winchester 30/30 that is a nice gun and I was wondering if .30 cal was the original chambering of the Winchester lever, or were there other calibers used back in the day as well?

Also, given the amount of time these guys spent carrying around the rifles, did slings eventually come into use? Or maybe this is just a movie deal and in real life of that time period the lever guns did have slings?

Btw, this is the first time I've been able to watch the whole Nevada Smith movie. Steve McQueen had quite the adventure in that story. I like when the old guy (can't remember the actor off hand) was loading some cartridges on his portable 'reloading bench' and he tells McQueen to make sure and pick up his brass because those rounds cost 1.5 cents each. 1.5 cents, those were the days I guess.

 

[john traveler]

Nevada Smith is one of my favorite westerns too.

The Winchester .30-30 in the model 1894 actually was a late comer to the winning of the west, although it was THE lever action caliber for much of the "civilized" days from 1895 to the present.

The real lever action winchesters that were part of the cowboy and indian days were the M1873 and the M1892, also a relative late comer. The calibers were: .44-40, .38-40, and .32-20.

The Winchester M1876 in .45-60, .40-60, and several other now obsolete calibers were also participants, as was the M1886 in .45-70 and other big-bore flavors for hunting large and dangerous western game.

Slings on lever actions never seemed to find much favor, although leather lanyards tied to the M1894 saddle carbine loop was used.

 

[walnutred]

My Grandfathers Uncle was a 19th Century Kansas settler and in was involved in the Dalton Gang shooting. He didn't have a Winchester, he had a Spencer. As he served in an Illinois Calvary Troop during the Civil War we always wondered if the Spencer and percussion Remington revolver were bring backs or post War purchases. One of my uncles still has both.

 

[steveno]

the "old Guy" was Brian Keith

 

[Muley Gil]

IIRC, the first chamberings were .32-40 and .38-55. The .30-30 came along about a year later.

 

[klondike]

I have my G Grandfather's SRC 1894 30-30, that was made in 1895. He took it with him to the Yukon gold fields where he made more than enough to recover from the desperate times of the 1894 depression. He then took this carbine to the gold fields around Wenatche, Wa.. Later it protected his new sawmill from arson during the labor trouble in Tacoma.
The carbine must have been carried in a good scabbard because it still looks great.
It saw plenty of "Old West" use even if it was in the NW instead of the SW.

 

[anoblefox]

wasn't the "old guy" supposed to be Sam Colt? Someone told me that a long time ago.

 

[ralph7]

can anyone tell me why .45 colt wasn't a lever gun chambering back in the day?

 

[Muley Gil]

"can anyone tell me why .45 colt wasn't a lever gun chambering back in the day?"

The rim on the .45 Colt cartridge was much smaller in the 1800s and the slight bottleneck cartridges (.44-40, .38-40, .32-20) sealed in the chambers better.

 

[jlrhiner]

I heard a story that Oliver Winchester would not chamber his rifles in a "Colt" cartridge. Might be BS, but could be true.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

I heard a story that Oliver Winchester would not chamber his rifles in a "Colt" cartridge. Might be BS, but could be true.

I have heard the same story. There MIGHT be a bit of truth to it as both Mr. Winchester and Col. Colt were vicious competitors. Colt had a prototype rifle that would have been in direct competition to the Winchester. Winchester then came out with a revolver that would directly compete the Colt SAA.

The companies came to an "understanding" for the most part.

 

[sureshotbob]

From the civil war on a lot of the lever guns were in .44 rim fire.

 

[Alpo]

While gun makers then and now don't want to put the competition's name on their product (44 Winchester became 44/40 when Marlin chambered it, 38 S&W became 38 Colt New Police when Colt chambered it and 45 ACP became 45 Auto when Glock chambered it), I can't believe that Winchester would not chamber a gun for Colt ammo just because it was Colt. Colt chambered their pistols in 44 Winchester, 38 Winchester and 32 Winchester.

It was, without a doubt, the rim, and lack thereof, of the 45 Colt. Compare the ejection notch on this modern "solid head" case to the notch on the older "balloon head" case.

Then look at the total lack of a rim on these original 45 Colt loads.

Just nothing for an extractor to grab.

 

[ralph7]

i would like to see some 38-40 and 44-40 rounds to compare.

please?

 

[walnutred]

As Col. Colt was dead for at least a decade before the 45 Colt was produced I'd be surprised if Winchester still held much animosity. Extraction problems were reported with the 44 Henry during the Civil War due the hot, dirty chambers. Which is why Winchester pretty much abandoned straight wall ctgs in their lever guns for almost a century. Unless I'm forgetting something beginning with the Winchester 73 all Winchester lever guns were chambered for tapered or bottleneck ctgs.

 

[Alpo]

i would like to see some 38-40 and 44-40 rounds to compare.

please?

 

[Andy Griffith]

Technically, the correct pieces that would have been carried for the time would be Spencer repeaters, Henry repeaters, early Whitney-Kennedy rifles, Winchester 1866's and a few 1873's. By the late 1870's early to mid 1880's, the buffalo were gone and steel rails brought the law to the west and cut the long cattle drives significantly. Also, with the steel rails, the talking wires cut down on where outlaws could hide- news spread fast.

The original chamberings in rifles were, .56-50 Spencer, .44 Henry Flat, .44 rimfire, .44-40, .38-40 and .32-20.

 

[max]

Besides having a good time here, I learn things. For many years, I could never understand why the lever actions were not chambered for .45, today I found out.

 

[reddogge]

Slings weren't in vogue in the days of the old west. They slipped them into their saddle scabbards, hence the term "saddle ring carbines".

 

[feralmerril]

Here is a 1895 carbine I have it`s in .30 army, better known as 30-40. When I bought this it didnt have a rear sight. A friend had a sight off a officers model springfield that fit without drilling. The gun surprised me with it`s accuracy. This model was popular with the texas rangers. I have the handguard, but it wont fit over the replaced rear sight.