The thrill of a quality cheap AR

[Buckshot Barry]

Took my Sport II to the outdoor range with 4 new shooters yesterday. The thrill of the day was shooting the AK and AR.

Prior to getting my Sport II two months ago, the AR would have been my LE6920 that I use in 3-Gun. It’s actually embarrassing to tell a new shooter how much I’ve dumped in to that 6920 with names like ACOG, Geissele, and AAC hanging off of it.

But with the Sport II I was grinning from ear to ear that the combo pack was only $499 (now $519 from grabagun).

The Sport II ran flawlessly and all 4 shooters really liked it.

 

[StephenWhoDat]

I agree. I also have a Sport II and it is one of my cheapest ARs. Runs like a champ.

 

[Univibe]

What y'all may not know is that 20 years ago, when I bought my first AR, the purchase of one was a major expenditure.

I paid $900 in 1999 dollars for a new Bushmaster M16A2 clone. I couldn't find a Colt at the time, but they were even higher. The 1999 Bushie was a high quality rifle to be sure, but that was a lot of money. I used an online "inflation calculator," and that $900 would be $1375 today.

Back then there were no entry-level ARs. You bought a Bushmaster, Armalite, or a Colt. Olympic was starting to make rifles but the quality was poor so nobody bought them.

Now you can go to a gun show with $600 in your pocket, and walk out with an AR, several Pmags, and some ammo to sight it in with.

 

[bamashooter]

Glad to see everyone had a good time. My first AR was a basic DPMS Oracle. Still have it and has always functioned flawlessly. A few upgrades these days but all in all, it's still an Oracle. Times are great for folks to get into ARs and related ammo at mostly affordable prices.

 

[Bullet Bob]

Wish I had bought an original Sport, without the forward assist. Too late now, they've all been modified (excuse me, modded ) nigh unto death.

 

[BB57]

What y'all may not know is that 20 years ago, when I bought my first AR, the purchase of one was a major expenditure.

I paid $900 in 1999 dollars for a new Bushmaster M16A2 clone. I couldn't find a Colt at the time, but they were even higher. The 1999 Bushie was a high quality rifle to be sure, but that was a lot of money. I used an online "inflation calculator," and that $900 would be $1375 today.

Back then there were no entry-level ARs. You bought a Bushmaster, Armalite, or a Colt. Olympic was starting to make rifles but the quality was poor so nobody bought them.

Now you can go to a gun show with $600 in your pocket, and walk out with an AR, several Pmags, and some ammo to sight it in with.

Your timeline is way off and I'm not sure you actually ever shot an SGW AR-15.

SGW started making AR-15s that were sold under the Olympic Arms banner in 1982. I'm not sure when they started but by the late 1980s, when I bought my first AR, over 30 years ago, Olympic also sold them as parts kits and one of the local gun shops had an armorer who built very nice AR-15s from those kits. They sold a boat load of them.

When I got tired of feeding my M1A and started to see the advantage of the AR-15 in national match, especially on the short courses, I shot one in DCM National Match and it shot very well - sub MOA with match bullets and about 1 MOA with Hornady 55 gr FMJ.

I eventually used it for prairie dog hunting with 52 gr and 53 grain match bullets, after adding an Olympic Arms free float tube, putting a scope on the carry handle, and a cheek riser on the stock.

It was an awesome little rifle and I regret selling it.

The quality may (or may not) have declined by the late 1990s, but my experience was that the early SGW Oly Arms rifles were excellent shooters.

 

[M29since14]

A bit off the subject of this thread, but I had a similar experience with Olympic Arms. Mine works and shoots great - and I still have it. No complaints whatsoever. I thought it was a little sad when Olympic folded up. They had interesting products.

But back to the subject at hand, yes, the inexpensive ARs I’ve been around recently (the Sports and the Rugers) have been pretty good - and they should be. Like the 1911, by now everyone understands what it takes to make a good shooting AR15. The ones I’ve seen recently average 1.5-2 MOA with ordinary 55 gr. FMJ factory loads. Maybe not 600-yard target rifle accuracy, but acceptable for inexpensive rifles that seem to be mostly used for the run and gun shooting games and general plinking.

 

[old tanker]

...When I got tired of feeding my M1A and started to see the advantage of the AR-15 in national match, especially on the short courses, I shot one in DCM National Match and it shot very well - sub MOA with match bullets and about 1 MOA with Hornady 55 gr FMJ...

For me the revelation came in the pits pulling the targets those AR's were shooting. It wasn't very long until you either shot an AR "over the course" or lost to one.

 

[Beauetienne]

I find most cheap AR's that I've shot function just fine with the right ammo and are accurate enough at 100 yards.
When I decided to go cheap on an AR my concern was all the crappy triggers on budget AR's. I built an Aero lower with a complete CBC upper and a generic parts kit. I took a lot of time stoning the trigger and sear contact points. Worked out great.
I'm a fan of cheap, fun, range toys. I might even trust this one for more than that if I had too. It runs like a clock so far.
Nice to see other's with like opinions.

 

[Rastoff]

Price is a funny thing when it comes to...well...any quality product.

You can buy something that will function for relatively little money. However, when you start to eek out that last little bit of extra, the price goes up in a hurry.

Let's look at optics...
Most people don't put much effort into choosing an optic. They're standing at a store and see a 3-9x40 scope for $80. The most common thought is, "Hey, that's a good price," and they buy it. It didn't come with rings so, they grab a set of rings for $30. Once home they mount it on their rifle and the next day they head to the range.

At the range they sight in at 50 yards. They shoot a couple/three shots, adjust. Repeat this process until there are three shots in about a 2" circle and almost in the center. Smiling from a decent day at the range, they gently place their beloved rifle, with new scope, in the case, put it in the trunk and head home.

Next week they go to the range and take a few shots at 50 yards. They're surprised when the group is high and to the right. Hmmm, must not have got that zero just right and the adjusting begins again. Once back home they come on forums like this and ask what's wrong with their gun. Never once do they suspect the scope.

Contrast that with the ACOG.
Buy new ACOG with a second lean on the house. It comes with a mount, but because you just have to have a QD mount, sell fist born child too. Get ACOG home and pop it on the rifle. Spend a ridiculous amount of time admiring the new purchase and setting it up for that perfect eye relief.

Next day head to the range to zero. Take one shot at 100 yards (to ensure the BDC is right), realize it's not in the center, adjust, another shot, adjust, another shot and so on. Soon it's centered and you've shot a .5" group. Smiling from the fun you've had, drop the gun on the bench, chuck it in a case (or not) and throw it in the trunk.

Next week head to the range and shoot a three shot group that's still in the center.

Next week go to a three gun match. In full view of spectators, as you move to the next target, you trip and do your best Superman impression as you gracefully land on top of your rifle. Not to be deterred, you get up and finish the stage. Your time sucks, but you've centered all the target.

Next week go back to the range to check your zero after the acrobatics and wonder of wonders, you're still hitting the center.


Yeah, you can spend a lot of money on stuff for your AR. More often than not it's worth it if you take the time to learn what it's for and how it works. Yes, the base gun at $500-$600 is fine, but those other things make it a lot more fun.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Rastoff makes some good points......... the old golden rule was an optic should cost as much as the rifle................................


But he's thrown down another of those d--- "Rastoff Challenge's"
Guess I'm going to have to go out and drop my 1990s Bushmaster with it's Aimpoint PRO off the deck.....and do a WWF "body slam" off the top rail.....
God I know that's going to hurt these 60+ year old bones

 

[rockquarry]

From a different perspective...

I didn't buy my first AR15s until about four years ago. I don't shoot them on a regular basis and have probably fired no more than 5,000 rounds, many of those experimenting with different handloads.

Other than scoping (regular duplex reticles, nothing weird) two of three guns and adding a rear aperture sight to one gun that came without such a sight, my guns are unmodified, straight-out-of-the box.

I've learned to shoot them with the stock triggers and handguards and everything else and the guns shoot pretty well with the best handload(s). They're accurate, feed reliably, and never jam, at least so far.

I wonder how many give their stock guns a fair chance and shoot them considerably before they do a lot of what could be unnecessary work. If my guns didn't shoot well as they came, I'd probably get rid of them; for sure if I had to rely on cheap commercial ammo.

Just a varying opinion.

 

[kbm6893]

What y'all may not know is that 20 years ago, when I bought my first AR, the purchase of one was a major expenditure.

I paid $900 in 1999 dollars for a new Bushmaster M16A2 clone. I couldn't find a Colt at the time, but they were even higher. The 1999 Bushie was a high quality rifle to be sure, but that was a lot of money. I used an online "inflation calculator," and that $900 would be $1375 today.

Back then there were no entry-level ARs. You bought a Bushmaster, Armalite, or a Colt. Olympic was starting to make rifles but the quality was poor so nobody bought them.

Now you can go to a gun show with $600 in your pocket, and walk out with an AR, several Pmags, and some ammo to sight it in with.

Same here. I bought a Colt Match Target Sporter for $975 in November of 1999. I wish I still had it, just to show anti-gunners who love to brag about the great Assault Weapons Ban. I showed my hugely anti-gun sister in law a video of me shooting It and asked her to show me how it was different than the current AR’s. My good friend bought a Bushmaster the same day I bought the Colt, for I think $75 less.

It was Colt or Bushmaster, basically. Nice to have choices nowadays. Even magazines are cheaper. Used GI mags were the same price as current Pro-Mags are today.

 

[ladder13]

First day home with my Sport II, pictured with it’s older brother.

 

[Farmer17]

I'm half joking but $499 seems like a lot for an AR today. I recently bought a PSA lower with gray Magpul furniture and elec. polished trigger for $129 shipped and bought an Anderson M4 style upper with Keymod rail and bolt charging group for about $250 so I have $379 in the whole gun which is perfectly reliable and shoots 1-1/2" groups rested on my range bag with cheap Federal 100 rd value pack ammo.

 

[Buckshot Barry]

Same here. I bought a Colt Match Target Sporter for $975 in November of 1999. I wish I still had it, just to show anti-gunners who love to brag about the great Assault Weapons Ban..

Huge DITTO here. I still have my Colt MT6601 purchased new in 1995 during the assault weapons ban. Non gunners are amazed that these were still MADE and SOLD from 1994 to 2004.

The rate of fire of that MT6601 is the same as my evil LE6920 and Sporter II.

 

[old tanker]

...just to show anti-gunners who love to brag about the great Assault Weapons Ban...

I loved showing those rabid twits the Thompson and telling them the Assault Weapons Ban did not apply to it. They really hard a hard time comprehending that their ban on "semi-automatic assault weapons" did not extend to fully automatic guns.

 

[BB57]

Price is a funny thing when it comes to...well...any quality product.

You can buy something that will function for relatively little money. However, when you start to eek out that last little bit of extra, the price goes up in a hurry.

Let's look at optics...
Most people don't put much effort into choosing an optic. They're standing at a store and see a 3-9x40 scope for $80..../

/... Next week they go to the range and take a few shots at 50 yards. They're surprised when the group is high and to the right. Hmmm, must not have got that zero just right and the adjusting begins again. Once back home they come on forums like this and ask what's wrong with their gun. Never once do they suspect the scope.

Contrast that with the ACOG..../

/...Next week go back to the range to check your zero after the acrobatics and wonder of wonders, you're still hitting the center.

I don't disagree. But I also don't drop a grand on an ACOG. Instead I put $350 into a Burris 332. It'll do all of the above you describe for the ACOG, with the same prism scope advantages of ruggedness, zero retention, compactness, eye relief and field of view, but at 1/3rd the price.

So there's quality but then there is also just conspicuous consumption.

 

[the Ar-15 Junkie]

So what exactly is “cheap” about these quality Smith ARs? Sport 2s can be had anywhere from $450.00 to $675.00, the cost is all over the place. Lets say $500.00. Now before Colt halted sales, a LE6920 could be had for about $900.00. So what does the extra $400.00 get you exactly?

What is $400.00 dollars cheaper about a Smith vs the Colt?
Lets start with the Smith barrel. My guess is Smith has less than $20 dollars manufacturing cost in the barrel. It comes with a 1/9 twist which is only really optimized for 55 grain bullets. NO chrome lining. NO government profile. Why does the lack of the government profile even matter, just cosmetics? If a Carbine doesn’t have the Government profile it doesn’t really look like a true carbine in my opinion. I have to wonder though how much $$$ Smith saves when machining a million barrels over 10 years and not having to do the extra machine work on that many barrels, and, it does add to the overall weight. Speaking of weight, that OR Optic Ready gas block is HEAVY, then add that to the non-government profile barrel and the thrill of your cheap quality AR can sub for a barbell lol. And every Smith I removed the barrel nut from was not really tight at all lol.

On ever Smith I have owned the A2 FSB was canted a few degrees from the factory, some more so than others. But most people will never notice. They are first time owners, not precision shooters, and most just throw a red dot on and never notice it. I had one example so canted a drop in piston kit would not even line up enough to function.

For the extra $400 dollars with Colt you get the lighter more aesthetically pleasing government profile barrel, chrome lined, 1/7 twist with A2 front sight blocks properly timed. And the barrel nut properly torqued.

OK take a look at your castle nut staking. WOW, what a joke, every Smith I have seen has the poorest excuse of castle nut staking possible, a joke. Looks like someone took a rusty old flat blade screwdriver they found on the side of the road and made a scratch on the castle nut. Go look at yours and see if any displaced metal exists and if it does is it even on the correct side of the notch? I pointed this out to a salesman the other day at a dealership and he lol when he saw it.

For the extra $400.00 with Colt you get a properly staked castle nut done by a machine that looks perfect.

Now go look at your buffer. See around the outer edge all chewed up from the buffer slamming into the buffer retainer? Some worse than others. I had 2 that were so bad, basically cosmetic yes, so after replacing the buffers I removed the buffer retainer all together and don’t even use it. I had one almost break from being bent. Took the opportunity to fix the crappy castle nut staking at the same time I removed the buffer retainers.

For the extra $400.00 with Colt you don’t have this problem as Colts are built to true military design specifications and the buffer doesn’t impact the buffer retainer when the gun is cycling. AND with Colt you get an H buffer, not a Carbine buffer like Smith provides.

Now, look at your bolt, does it say MP on it? What does that mean? Does it means your Smith bolt has been Magnetic Particle tested? Probably not, Smith does batch testing where they test only a few examples out of every hundred or so that comes off the assembly line.

For the extra $400.00 with Colt you get a MP tested bolt as Colt tests every single one.

Look at the crappy Parkerizing on the Smith BCG and Crappy staking on the carrier key.

For the extra $400.00 with Colt you get a true mill spec parkerized BCG and properly staked Gas key.

I could go on and on about gas tube dimension specs, pin and trigger holes, flash hiders not properly torqued ect, ect.
Now you wonder if a Smith gives you the thrill of a cheap quality AR, its the Colt that gives you thrill of a Quality AR at a bargain price.

There are actually some things about the Smiths I like. The machining of the mag wells are perfect. Every magazine I use snap in and drop put perfectly. The mill spec triggers work great for what they are. I even buy Smith AR lower parts kits for other guns I assemble because they are great quality for the price.
And everything on these Smiths I mentioned above are mostly fixable.

But these Smiths are indeed cheap, and in the long run, it’s a bargain to pay the extra $400.00 for the Colt, or unfortunately it once was when Colts were still available.

I currently own as of writing this 7 Smiths, 2 with Osprey Piston Kits, I enjoy them all.

But yes, Smiths are what they are , pretty much cheap. But I still love mine.


https://i.imgur.com/lxCguoD.jpg

 

[ColbyBruce]

I had a Sport which I described in this thread a few weeks ago.

I put together a M&P Sport

Curiosity got the best of me and I put a 12x Redfield scope off a Mossberg .223 on the Sport and set it up on a solid rest on a bench. The rifle now belongs to a thirteen year old girl. She fired this group with Federal ammo at 100 yards. With a center hold the first three shots hit at the six o’clock mark. Rather than adjust the scope, we had her hold at twelve o’clock and the next seven rounds chewed the center up.

The Monstrum red dot was at best a marginal optic. It did not survive a trip through a creek. The girl’s dad offered to run to Walmart and get her another red dot, you know, a $39.99 job in a blister pack. Her mother asked me where she could buy a quality optic and she put the girl and Sport in her car and drove off. An hour and a half later they are back with a Burris 332, three twenty round magazines and ammo.

The girl has killed seven coyotes and wounded three with the Sport. The wounded critters were dropped by her companions. That rifle had a ten round Bushmaster magazine in it when she took possession. She was putting multiple rounds into each coyote and ran out of ammo. All were moving when she took them.