The unloved Carcano

[sigp220.45]

A "sporterized" Carcano was one of the few guns we had in the house when I was growing up, and I thought it was surely some kind of death ray. I don't know where it went - my brother probably sold it for beer money - but I always remembered it fondly.

As I came to know more about guns, I learned the Carcano had a terrible reputation. I'm sure some of that was well earned, and some came from Dealey Plaza, but I've kept my eye out for one ever since.

Yesterday I was in Cabela's and this little 1938 Cavalry Carbine was in the rack, with a tag that said WALLHANGER ONLY and a price of 129 bucks. I offered 100 and a deal was struck. After suffering through the DMV-like process of actually completing a purchase at Cabela's, I brought it home.





It is a homely duck, for sure. How the same country that produced Ferraris and Berettas made this is beyond me.

At least the bolt is turned down.



The cleaning rod was still in the trap.



The numbers match, even on the stock with all of its helpful cartouches.



It even has a nifty folding spike bayonet.



Now I need to scare up a couple of 6 round clips and some 7.35mm ammo. It is actually a very handy little gun - shorter than a Winchester 94 and very light. It has a simple fixed rear sight, the action is clunky but works fine, and the cartridge is relatively stout.

I think it is the ultimate truck gun. I figure if anyone breaks in they'll not only leave the gun they may throw in a few bucks out of pity.

 

[k22fan]

For some forgotten reason I once wanted to reload for one. I must have gotten the dies mixed in with a box of other used reloading tools. A friend who collected WW II military guns volunteered a 7.35 mm with a more conventional stock. The bullets are a weird diameter but were still made by Speer. I scrounged some up at a gun show then proceeded to shoot 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards. They might do better with better sights. Those fixed sights would not even be good pistol sights. I'm pretty sure I sold the dies and brass at a gun show 30 years ago. It's not quick to get to but there's only one place the clips would be if I still have them. You are correct, I did not love the Carcano and do not want one so if the clips are there they're yours for the asking.

 

[Bruce51]

Terni

Be aware that the cartridge rims are very thin and getting them to feed into the claw may require some smithing.

Bullets and cases are only available from Graf & Sons with an occasional find on GB.

Without the clips it can't even be used as a single shot unless you withdraw the bolt and place the cartridge under the claw. Missing the pickup the bolt will shove the case forward and jam up the rifle. A rod or firm bounce on the ground will drop the round back out.

If you reload start below minimum and work up. I never got past minimum as the bolt lift tightened up early on.

An interesting looking carbine probably used by a someone to obtain a better rifle.



Bruce

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Yours is "Mint" compared to the 6.5 I had. I had American Eagle Ammo from the 1990's for it and it shot fine. The 6.5mm round was designed by Manliccur (SP) and was great for the intended purpose- shooting German speaking enemies in the Alps. It was a fair success against the Ethiopians. But when the Tarrini Division was incorporated into the Afrika Korps they were issues k98's like their German counterparts.

The Italian military, at the turn of the 19th to 20th century until WWI was in the vanguard of technology. They were the first to use Airplanes in combat as well as the first to use Radio in ground combat. (Both against what we now call Ethiopia, circa 1908 or 1909)

 

[federali]

Look Behind The Curtain

The Carcano's origin goes back to 1891 when bolt actions were rapidly evolving. Compared to the #1 Mark 3 Enfield, the German Mausers or the 1903 Springfield, the Carcano was already obsolete by the end of the Great War.

The rifle is somewhat of an embarrassment in that Italy was long known for quality firearms such as Beretta. However, if you know anything about Italy, they suffer from long-term corrupt government that has been thoroughly infiltrated by organized crime, especially in the south. The point is, the individual merits of the rifle probably had little to do with the selection process.

If you want a spell-binding and eye-opening account of Mafia infiltrated government, I highly recommend "Excellent Cadavers"
by Alexander Stille, Vintage Books. You'll wonder how that country accomplishes anything.

 

[Goblin]

It is a homely duck, for sure. How the same country that produced Ferraris and Berettas made this is beyond me.

You forgot to mention Ducatis.

 

[poordevil]

Isn't Horneday making soft point ammo for that? You will find clips for it in the Shotgun News

 

[Bruce51]

Hornady makes the bullets and Pri Partizan makes the cases.

Hornady does not list the 7.35 mm in their ammunition list.

A company called P C I / Precision cartridge Inc ammunition has 7.35 but I expect it is the combination of components listed above.

There is some surplus listed on GB as we speak, but I prefer to just to reload my own.

There is some good data listed for this round. Just take it easy on these old guns.

Bruce

 

[DWalt]

The original caliber used by the Italians in the Carcano was the 6.5x52mm. They even converted some of their earlier Italian Vetterli-Vitalli military rifles to that caliber. Sometime in the later 1930s, the Italian Army decided it need a larger diameter bullet than the 6.5mm, and for some reason they thought the .30 was needed. And that was exactly what they got - a true 0.300" diameter bullet. The 7.35mm Carcano round was essentially a necked-up 6.5mm Carcano. Not a great many 7.35mm rifles were made before someone figured out that it was logistically a very poor idea to have pretty much identical rifles in service chambered for two incompatible calibers, especially in wartime. As the Italians had a lot more rifles available in the 6.5mm chambering, they dropped the 7.35mm and stayed with the 6.5 throughout their involvement in WWII. Of course, the alleged JFK assassination rifle was a 6.5mm Carcano.

Back in my High School days. had a friend who bought a 7.35 Carcano rifle from Hunter's Lodge (I think). It came with some 7.35mm "Hunting" ammo which was probably made up by pulling the FMJ bullets from Italian military ammo and replacing them with soft point sporting bullets (not unusual at that time). Unfortunately, the neck tension of these rounds was fairly weak, and upon firing, the bullets in the magazine popped out from the cases, dumping their powder charges. One of the weaknesses of the Carcano was the "en bloc" ammunition clip (like those used in the M1 Garand). You could not use the Carcano as anything other than a single shot without clipped ammunition, nor could the magazine be topped up by individual rounds. But by using the clip, it was quick to reload. I still have several packets of original 6.5 Carcano ammo hidden away somewhere, but I don't remember ever seeing any packets of the 7.35 Carcano ammo.

"If you want a spell-binding and eye-opening account of Mafia infiltrated government, I highly recommend "Excellent Cadavers""

Rest assured that could NEVER happen in the USA.

 

[Arik]

I know of a gun store that deals in a lot of surplus arms. They have all kinds of stuff and I pretty sure they have 7.35 Carcano, probably original too. I can check if you want.

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[Bruce51]

Be sure to check out the gain twist rifling in the barrel.

I wonder who thought that was a good idea?


Bruce

 

[30-30remchester]

Be sure to check out the gain twist rifling in the barrel.

I wonder who thought that was a good idea?


Bruce

I must have only seen the good examples as I do not recall seeing any poor quality guns. The ones I observed were well built from all machined steel and I saw no tooling marks. The design is kinda iffy in my books but I have never actually shot one so my dislike may be from the ugly appearance.

 

[k22fan]

Be sure to check out the gain twist rifling in the barrel.

I wonder who thought that was a good idea?


Bruce

Who thought gain twis was a good idea? Gain twist was one of the many variations of rifling used in long range muzzle loader matches during the 1850s and I do not doubt else where. The better match rifles launched a 500 to 550 grain .45 caliber bullet at 1,800 fps. That's not too shabby for the 1850s. The idea was to progressively increase the rate of spin to avoid stripping the bullet as it started to move. Remember the standard .58 caliber mini-ball twist was 1 in 72". Those long .45 bullets had to leave the muzzle spinning at approximately 1 in 24". The 6.5 MM Carcano was designed in the late 1880s and carried black powder ideas forward.

Now my brief opinion on Carcanos or the primary rifle of any of the most modern industrialized nations being junk is their armies would not have put up with rifles that did not function. The Mannlicher magazine design soldiered on through WW II in a half dozen rifles including our vaunted Garand.

 

[LEO918]

My first center fire rifle was a 7.35 Carcano that had been "sporterized".
My Dad bought it for me from a secondhand store. As I recall the price was $12.50 in 1960. The Italian military ammo was available in clips from military surplus stores.

 

[silentflyer]

Add FIAT to the list...Fix It Again Tony....

 

[Texas Star]

Someone above had an awful time spelling the designer's name: Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher.

The famous sporting rifles with his bolt system used a rotary magazine designed by Otto Schoenauer.

Mannlicher-Schoenauer hunting rifles are a far cry from these Carcano military rifles.

 

[federali]

Wildcatting?

The Carcanos are probably not worth the cost of a conversion but I would think that having the bore reamed to 7.62, then using a 7.62 expander plug in the sizing die might be all that is needed to convert these rifles to usable condition with a readily available caliber.

Some body has probably thought of this long ago and chambering reamers may be available.

I would guess that such a wildcat would fall about half way between the 7.62X39 and the .308 Winchester in energy and velocity levels.

 

[k22fan]

The 7.35 MM grooves probably are larger than the ideal .300" land diameter of standard American .308s so you'd have to rebarrel it. It would have to have a Scout scope mounted ahead of the receiver or a side mount that requires an add on check rest. Maybe the odd size bolt face could be made to work with the .25, .32 and .30 Remington cases but good luck trying to find a gunsmith willing to make a functioning magazine for a different case body. A solid piece with a trough could be installed over the magazine so cartridges could be slide in as a single shot but if Bruce Lee M is correct the extractor claw would have to be modified to slip over the rim. On the positive side SAAMI pressures for the Remington cartridges are about right.

If you did all the work yourself as a hobby you might have fun and if in the end it went in the dumpster there would be no big loss.

 

[sigp220.45]

I know of a gun store that deals in a lot of surplus arms. They have all kinds of stuff and I pretty sure they have 7.35 Carcano, probably original too. I can check if you want.

Don't make a special trip on my account, but if they do have either clips or ammo and will ship please PM me. Thanks!!

 

[Arik]

Don't make a special trip on my account, but if they do have either clips or ammo and will ship please PM me. Thanks!!

I typically stop by on Saturdays. Will let you know

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