Too much or not enough crimp?
- Thread starter zgoettsc
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I will tell you my process so you can tell me if anything seems wrong.
Hornady LnL
1. Decap/Size - Hornady Die
2. Prime/Powder - Hornady Powder measure w/ universal powder expander
3. Lock out die - RCBS
4. Bullet Feeder - Hornady
5. Seat/Crimp - Hornady
Where could I be going wrong? I have the decaping/sizing die lowered all the way down to size the whole case. Could it be the universal powder through expander? Maybe I should try the Hornady PTX one that came with the dies?
Hornady LnL
1. Decap/Size - Hornady Die
2. Prime/Powder - Hornady Powder measure w/ universal powder expander
3. Lock out die - RCBS
4. Bullet Feeder - Hornady
5. Seat/Crimp - Hornady
Where could I be going wrong? I have the decaping/sizing die lowered all the way down to size the whole case. Could it be the universal powder through expander? Maybe I should try the Hornady PTX one that came with the dies?
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
It's hard to tell from your pictures. Are those rounds bulging where the bullet is seated? Is the diameter where the bullet is in the case wider than below where the bullet is? Or are those cases slightly buckled?
If they are buckled I would suggest your seat/crimp die is adjusted improperly. If the die is applying the crimp before the bullet is completely seated the case will buckle because since the bullet can't continue seating into the case for the crimp the pressure applied by the press buckles the case.
If they are buckled I would suggest your seat/crimp die is adjusted improperly. If the die is applying the crimp before the bullet is completely seated the case will buckle because since the bullet can't continue seating into the case for the crimp the pressure applied by the press buckles the case.
Its not buckling. It's definitely smaller below the bullet. Hmmmmmm.........
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Not at all, the drawing tells the whole story of what the round looks like.
Excuse the poor drawing. Thought it might help
There can be a few different problems there. Your case is being sized too narrow or the bullet is the wrong diameter. It's also possible the bullet is being seated cocked and causing the bulge. I'm sure there are more reasons and it's possible more than one reason I mentioned can be occurring at the same time too. I'm sure there will be more comments soon and we will figure this out...
Usually a jacketed bullet will be sized to .451" and a lead bullet to .452" but a bullet that is only .001" wider will not do to the case what we are seeing in the pictures. You are sure the bullets aren't in an incorrectly marked box and actually .458" right? did you measure the bullets yourself because anything is possible and the bullets can be just a little off-size in a box marked .452".
Bruce51
Member
What is the case brand? Some cases are thicker/ Winchester and some are thinner/Remington.
The case thickness can have an effect on how much the case appears to be bulged after a bullet is seated.
The important thing is what is the outside diameter of the case with the bullet seated?
It should be about .473"
The .45 acp is not really crimped but the case flare is removed. Case neck tension holds the bullet in place. You sure appear to have plenty of that in your reloads.
If you are crimping too hard you may be forcing a bulge into the case below the bullet. Especially if you are exceeding .473".
If they chamber ok they will fire.
BLM
The case thickness can have an effect on how much the case appears to be bulged after a bullet is seated.
The important thing is what is the outside diameter of the case with the bullet seated?
It should be about .473"
The .45 acp is not really crimped but the case flare is removed. Case neck tension holds the bullet in place. You sure appear to have plenty of that in your reloads.
If you are crimping too hard you may be forcing a bulge into the case below the bullet. Especially if you are exceeding .473".
If they chamber ok they will fire.
BLM
Waywatcher
Member
That profile is not necessarily concerning. Is it consistent all the way around? What brand of brass and bullets?
I don't 100% size my 9mm tapered cases............
there is a 3/16th " gap at the shell holder and the die, since
some where I read where the case does not need it and the
case will be a little larger in diameter to help out with case bulge.
I would think the same would work with the .45 acp............
Back your sizing die out to about three dimes of clearance from the die and see if the cases look any better when loaded.
The "Hour Glass" case is common in this style of cases when the dies are not set correctly or you have a possibility of a thick case and over size bullets, together.
Good luck finding a cure.
there is a 3/16th " gap at the shell holder and the die, since
some where I read where the case does not need it and the
case will be a little larger in diameter to help out with case bulge.
I would think the same would work with the .45 acp............
Back your sizing die out to about three dimes of clearance from the die and see if the cases look any better when loaded.
The "Hour Glass" case is common in this style of cases when the dies are not set correctly or you have a possibility of a thick case and over size bullets, together.
Good luck finding a cure.
"...Alot of the bullets from tonights loading session came out looking like this. "
If some look like that and some do not (look OK),,what's different about the OK looking reloaded rounds?
Are they a different brand/headstamp of brass? Different mfg'r brass,,even different lots from the same mfg,,can have slightly different wall thickness.
The sizer dies makes all equal on the outside,,the bullet when seated exposes differences in wall thickness by expanding the thicker walled brass back out.
A sizer die that's a couple of 1/10 .000" smaller than normal can make all the reloads look like these by FL sizing the brass down farther than is necessary. Then the bullet when seated pushes it back out.
They still chamber as the brass isn't oversize anywhere,,just cosmeticly objectionable & still a 10/.000" or so undersize below the seated bullet.
(A few) slightly oversize bullets will do the same to perfectly sized brass also.
Lots of different things to look at.
If some look like that and some do not (look OK),,what's different about the OK looking reloaded rounds?
Are they a different brand/headstamp of brass? Different mfg'r brass,,even different lots from the same mfg,,can have slightly different wall thickness.
The sizer dies makes all equal on the outside,,the bullet when seated exposes differences in wall thickness by expanding the thicker walled brass back out.
A sizer die that's a couple of 1/10 .000" smaller than normal can make all the reloads look like these by FL sizing the brass down farther than is necessary. Then the bullet when seated pushes it back out.
They still chamber as the brass isn't oversize anywhere,,just cosmeticly objectionable & still a 10/.000" or so undersize below the seated bullet.
(A few) slightly oversize bullets will do the same to perfectly sized brass also.
Lots of different things to look at.
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
A bit of an "hourglass" shape where you can see the base of the bullet isn't unusual. I see it usually when using .452" lead bullets with almost any brass except R-P. BUT... I am using a LFCD which uses a final sizing ring. I take it you are not.
Do your bullets normally look like that?
Is this your first batch with the .452" plated bullets?
What type brass are you using? I've found that PMC has particularly thick walls & shows the "hourglass" more than others.
The "ring" near the nose of your bullets tell me maybe a seating/crimping issue? Are those rings there before you seat them?
Do your bullets normally look like that?
Is this your first batch with the .452" plated bullets?
What type brass are you using? I've found that PMC has particularly thick walls & shows the "hourglass" more than others.
The "ring" near the nose of your bullets tell me maybe a seating/crimping issue? Are those rings there before you seat them?
scooter123
Member
IMO you may not be flaring your cases enough in the flare/powder drop stage. I like to set my flare die so that a bullet will drop about 0.05 inch into the case and allow the bullet to lift the charged case. A bit more flare should reduce the force require to seat a bullet and reduce that dimpling on the noze of your bullets.
As for that hourglass effect, some is perfectly typical. In your case I thing that appearance is in part due to a ripple that is being formed at the base of the bullet due to a combination of a sharp corner at the base of the bullet, the brand of brass, and not enough flare. To some extent that hourglass is completely normal.
Finally, looking at your pictures it appears that you may not be crimping enough. I like to set my crimp up so that the diameter at the edge of the case is 0.003-0.004 inch smaller than the diameter at the midpoint of the bullet bulge area. I suspect that if you crimp must a touch more you'll find you ammo will pass your case gage.
As for that hourglass effect, some is perfectly typical. In your case I thing that appearance is in part due to a ripple that is being formed at the base of the bullet due to a combination of a sharp corner at the base of the bullet, the brand of brass, and not enough flare. To some extent that hourglass is completely normal.
Finally, looking at your pictures it appears that you may not be crimping enough. I like to set my crimp up so that the diameter at the edge of the case is 0.003-0.004 inch smaller than the diameter at the midpoint of the bullet bulge area. I suspect that if you crimp must a touch more you'll find you ammo will pass your case gage.
This is really about the first time I have loaded 45acp. I did a few the other night after I set the press up.
They are PMC brass. Xtreme brand .0452" 230gn plated HP.
I noticed the ring on the bullet. It is NOT there on a bullet that hasn't been seated.
I am going to try to increase the flare before seating and increase the crimp tonight
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Your rounds are fine to shoot. That's bullet bulge, not a crimping problem. It's common with a tight resizer and oversize lead bullets (or even jacketed). The resizer under sizes the case and then the oversize bullet expands it out--the hour-glass shape resulting.
If you're not shaving lead/copper when seating the bullet, your flaring is probably fine. Don't flare more than necessary as it may shorten case life. You need to fully resize your cases also. You're not neck sizing pistol brass. Your loaded case diameter, when measured at the mouth, should read .470-.472(ish). Much smaller than that and you're over crimping, much larger and you're under crimping. It may vary a .001 or two due to variences in case mouth thickness.
The "ring" on your bullet is from the seating stem. Most seating stems don't fit all bullet shapes and tend to do that, especially with softer lead bullets. It won't affect anything. You can buy, or have made, a special seating stem designed for that particular bullet, but it may not fit the next bullet make/shape. The ring being concentric all around the bullet shows you're seating the bullet straight.
If you're not shaving lead/copper when seating the bullet, your flaring is probably fine. Don't flare more than necessary as it may shorten case life. You need to fully resize your cases also. You're not neck sizing pistol brass. Your loaded case diameter, when measured at the mouth, should read .470-.472(ish). Much smaller than that and you're over crimping, much larger and you're under crimping. It may vary a .001 or two due to variences in case mouth thickness.
The "ring" on your bullet is from the seating stem. Most seating stems don't fit all bullet shapes and tend to do that, especially with softer lead bullets. It won't affect anything. You can buy, or have made, a special seating stem designed for that particular bullet, but it may not fit the next bullet make/shape. The ring being concentric all around the bullet shows you're seating the bullet straight.
I get that with all of my lead bullet reloads.As long as the bulge is even all the way around and they feed and chamber properly,they are fine.
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
In that case I would expect to see the "hourglass shape. PMC is some of my favorite brass for loading .451" bullets. It's my last choice for .452", especially plain lead.
The ring may just be your seating punch pushing .452" bullets into the thick brass. Flare should be just enough that a bullet will sit atop the flared case easily. More than that isn't really going to affect how easy or hard the punch has to push and will reduce brass life.
Easy does it on the crimp. I like to use the jaws of my caliper to look for juuuuuust a sliver of daylight to appear right at the case mouth. Depending on the brand of brass this is usually .471"-.473". The important spec is that the flaring is removed and it "plunks" in your barrel. Google "plunk test."
gwpercle
Member
If you loaded .451 bullets you would not notice the "bulge". Most dies are made to size cases and seat .451 dia. bullets so the .452's show around the base . As long as they feed and chamber , it's not a problem. Actually this will ensure that a trip up the feed ramp will not drive the bullet deeper into the case.
What will help is sizing the case down about three quarters of the way, you will have to experiment with this, that way the case below the bullet is not quite so small and you will not see the bulge effect.
Another option is a resizing die made for loading cast bullets...these are normally sized for .452 bullets and will do the job.
Gary
What will help is sizing the case down about three quarters of the way, you will have to experiment with this, that way the case below the bullet is not quite so small and you will not see the bulge effect.
Another option is a resizing die made for loading cast bullets...these are normally sized for .452 bullets and will do the job.
Gary
Is / are your loading dies aligned with the shell plate? Dillon provides an alignment pin with its 550/650 presses. I've made ammo like that pictured. The problem was solved by aligning the shell plate to the tool head. Instructions were provided with the alignment pin.
