Took the Model 27 out, with some disappointing results

[David LaPell]

Well, I have been reading up on some of the hotter .357 loads lately, and decided to try some in my Model 27-2. Well, I never did get quite what I wanted. These are some of my own cast #358156 HP's that weigh about 147 grains and are cast from a 16 to 1 mix of lead to tin and are about 12-13 BHN. They were loaded in old Peters large primer brass (I was feeling nostalgic) with 14.5 grains of 2400. I was reading up on these and this was actually less than one of Skeeter's loads and in this months American Handgunner John Taffin was talking about the 358156 bullets and his preferred loads are between 14 and 15 grains of 2400 in .357 brass. They were seated in the top crimp groove (bottom is for .38 Special hot loads) and the accuracy was mediocre and as you can see by the target, well it went downhill. I would love to say that the wider spread was getting it sighted in, but I can't. There is no leading from these, but as I went through them the extraction of the cases got worse, as the accuracy decreased. The closer shots were the first few fired. I was wondering if the primers could have something to do with it, maybe this is one of the reasons why the large primers were dropped in favor of smaller ones. You can see the primers in the pic afterwards. They are a bit flat. So I wonder if I want to try smaller primers? Recoil was brisk one handed but nothing excessive. (Quite fun actually I love boomers!). Anyway I am going to work on some loads with a lighter charge to see what comes up because these certainly working the way I want them to.

Here's the load before hand.....

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

Where the primers standard or magnum? I find that I get better results with 2400 using standard small pistol primers(Winchester)

 

[David LaPell]

Where the primers standard or magnum? I find that I get better results with 2400 using standard small pistol primers(Winchester)

They were CCI standard large pistol primers.

 

[Mickey D]

Large pistol primers?

 

[DAinTX]

Not particularly unusual for very hot loads to have less than stellar accuracy. Of course, there are exceptions and accuracy always varies gun to gun. So I'm not saying extremely hot loads can't be accurate, but best accuracy is typically found in light to mid-range loads, IME.

 

[jaymoore]

I'm wondering if backing off the crimp a little would help.

 

[Steve C]

So you picked a load and it didn't perform well in your particular pistol. Now that you gave that a try go back and do a proper load work up to find the best load for your gun.

 

[pownal55]

Two thoughts, first measure the diameter of a few random bullets for consistency. Second, try a few at lower target velocities to see if groups tighten up. You have a common problem when loading to magnum velocity.

 

[Harkrader]

Per "pownal55," check your bullets. I had similar accuracy problems with a 1911 some years ago. In exasperation at being unable to correct it with loading tweaks and after trying them in another gun, I weighed the bullets and found wild differences. Some had voids in them.
I'm way out of my depth on this: I note some of your primer hits are off center quite a bit as compared to others. Could there be a cylinder alignment problem? Perhaps the cylinder base pin is worn. Maybe a chamber or two are off center or not round.

 

[68lemans462]

I'm wondering if backing off the crimp a little would help.

Agreed.. Too much crimp on those..

 

[H Richard]

I'd always found the heavier the load of 2400 took more crimp to make it perform.

 

[Waywatcher]

I don't think your primer hits look too off-center, and I don't think you have too much crimp. I wouldn't go heavier on the crimp, but I don't think that's the problem.

Are you typically able to shoot better groups than that? I don't mean to insult your shooting ability, but a frame of reference is required to make a judgment on that group. Do you have an accuracy load that performs better for you?

I would try working up the load. Try 13.5 grains and see how it goes.

 

[aphelion]

I notice your blurb on the target says "one handed rested." What technique are you using? What kind of groups do you get with known accurate loads loads using your technique? Shooting a handgun from a rest for accuracy testing requires proper technique and consistency to arrive at any conclusive results and it is especially important with short barrels and heavy loads. I've used 14 gr of 2400 with the 358156 solid off and on for years, and it has worked well in everything I've tried it in.

 

[TAROMAN]

I notice your blurb on the target says "one handed rested." What technique are you using? What kind of groups do you get with known accurate loads loads using your technique? Shooting a handgun from a rest requires proper technique and consistency to arrive at any conclusive results and it is especially important with short barrels and heavy loads.

Exactly. After figuring that out long ago, all my testing is done in the same manner as would normally shoot the loads.
Of course, I'm not a High Master either!
Start low and work up. Usually its easy to see the sweet when the group size shrinks.

 

[Ron Roehrick]

I always used small primers in the 357 you stated you used a large primer?

 

[nedlate]

They were loaded in old Peters large primer brass (I was feeling nostalgic)

I was wondering if the primers could have something to do with it, maybe this is one of the reasons why the large primers were dropped in favor of smaller ones.

David Lapell was using old brass made with large primer pockets just for fun.

 

[David LaPell]

I notice your blurb on the target says "one handed rested." What technique are you using? What kind of groups do you get with known accurate loads loads using your technique? Shooting a handgun from a rest for accuracy testing requires proper technique and consistency to arrive at any conclusive results and it is especially important with short barrels and heavy loads. I've used 14 gr of 2400 with the 358156 solid off and on for years, and it has worked well in everything I've tried it in.

Unfortunately due to an arm injury at work from two years ago, one hand is really all I have. I have been shooting like this now for two years, because its all I have got. Last year I was shooting one inch groups with my Outdoorsman with .38 Special brass and 12.5 and 13.0 grains of 2400 behind these same bullets as well as 170 grain #358429's behind 12.5 grains of 2400. I am not recoil sensitive. I shoot the gun off sandbags and it is rested. I also was shooting the Outdoorsman at 65 yards off of shooting sticks last year and was able to keep everything in an area about the size of eight inches. I know the 27 shoots because I was running 125 grain Hornady XTP's under some pretty stout loads of 2400 and they were well under 2 inches. All shooting the same way I do now. I shoot one handed because I have to, not because I want to.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Large pistol primers?

Original ".357" Magnum loads used large pistol primers.

 

[aphelion]

I shoot one handed because I have to, not because I want to.

No criticism was intended. It sounds like your technique works for you. I've seen a lot of people frustrated with getting good, repeatable groups from a rest with handguns. I know I did early on. It is not as simple as it may look.

 

[captaint]

David - I'm wondering if using straight ACWW's with some tin might help. Maybe even water drop them. You are running them fairly hard. They do have gas checks, tho.... So, try some small primer brass and see what develops. Mike