Trapdoor H&R

[Art Doc]

Sometime in the late 1990s I was perusing Gunbroker and saw this H&R 45-70 Trapdoor carbine. Looked cool so I threw the starting bid on it. I really felt the starting price was about all the rifle was worth and vowed not to bid any higher. I think I'm one of the few people who can actually keep that promise on an auction. Apparently everyone else agreed with me on the value and my one bid was the only one.

Right away the seller started complaining in emails about the low selling price. Well, I think buyer and seller should both be happy with a deal so I offered to call off the transaction if he paid the auction site the fee he owed them. I think it was about $11 so for that amount he could cancel the sale and not feel bad about the low price. But he replied that he wanted to go ahead with the transaction and the complaining stopped.

The gun was like new when I got it. Problem is it weighs like 6 pounds and I'm very recoil sensitive. This thing kicks like a mule with anything approaching full power loads. With loads about like a hot 45 Colt I can shoot it fine.

 

[biku324]

I have one....with cowboy loads my wife and I both enjoy it very much. I added the Skinner ladder sight.

 

[merl67]

I had two original ones, and even with full rifles the recoil is stout. The beauty of reloading is the fact you can tailor your loads. My niece once came to me, and wanted to start carrying a gun for self protection, so she came over to the house, and we shot everything I had including my S&W model 29-2 with a 4 inch barrel. I had some mild loads prepared especially for her, enough power to know she had touched off something with some power, but nothing that would make her gun shy. I was taking a few pictures I managed to snap one with it recoiling still one of my favorite photos.

 

[Fishinfool]

Nice looking rifle. I don't know why the curved metal "rifle" butt plate was so popular with early rifles, compared to the much more comfortable flat "shotgun" style butt's.

I have seen several companies on line that make slip on recoil pads for curved butt rifles. Takes the sting out of firing them without any permanent alterations to the rifle.

Larry

 

[k22fan]

Back in the 1970s when I shot a lot of muzzle loaders H&R had a full length infantry version of their Trap Door. I still regret not buying a nearly new one that I saw in a local gun store for $100. Of course it's easy to forget my budget in those days, inflation etc.

Over the years I had the loan of two 19 Century Trap Door rifles that had been shortened and fired a friends original rifle quite a bit. The old barrels are over size for modern bullets and vary a lot in dimensions. Black powder bumped the soft lead bullets up in diameter so easily that precise dimensions did not matter. I assume H&R groove diameters are pretty close to .458". That would be ideal to work with. they're great fun.

 

[.357magger]

I've always wanted one of the H&Rs, more than an original as I'm more of a shooter than collector. Just haven't found one for the price I want. Have lost a couple of auctions over the years when I saw them.

I've fired one owned by a buddy with what he described as "cowboy loads". Not punishing, but you know you've fired a rifle when you touch one off.

Thanks for sharing yours.

 

[jake1945]

There was/is complaints with the H&R trapdoors. When fired, the lock would open creating dangerous situations. H&R never corrected the problem which is why most savvy people shy away from them. It's better to buy REAL Springfield trapdoors and be safe!

 

[biku324]

I've fired my H&R over a thousand rounds with no trouble. Never heard about a problem anywhere before.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I have original Trapdoor Springfields that I shoot and have taken on hunting trips. With anything approaching a full load the recoil is significant, to put it mildly. Standard load for the infantry rifle was .45-70-500 (70 grains BP, 500-grain lead bullet). Standard load for the carbines was .45-55-405 (same case, 55 grains BP, 405-grain lead bullet). If my experience is any guide, groove diameters can be expected to be from .460" to .464" or so.

Lots of the originals after the early 1880's went from Springfield Armory to state militia units, and many remained there well after WW1. By the Depression years Trapdoors were being sold off for as little as $2 each. I remember seeing these in stores during the 1960's and 1970's, usually well under $100. Thousands were turned into standing electric lamps, and many more probably didn't survive the WW2 emergency scrap metal drives. Bannerman's purchased tons of surplus Trapdoors and converted many of the rifles to the carbine configuration, which was much more popular for hunting use. Consequently, surviving Trapdoors in original condition are highly prized collectibles, particularly original Cavalry Carbines.

Much of my shooting uses a 340-grain cast RN-FP with 25 grains IMR-4198. Probably about 1200FPS, modest recoil, deadly on Colorado mule deer. Trajectory might be compared to a "hail Mary" pass in the final couple of seconds in a championship football game.

One of the H&R Trapdoor reproductions came my way in a trade several years ago (at very little investment on my part). Fit and finish was quite good, and I think they did a pretty good job with that product line. I did not fire the rifle, sold it on to an enthusiastic young guy who was very happy to get it.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

I've been a collector of original Trapdoors for many years. I've also bought and shoot two different H&R Officer Model Trapdoors and find them easy to load for and very accurate.

Of course you know this, but the Army issued a cavalry load for the carbines and that was a 405 grain cast bullet over 55 grains of black powder for something like 1,100 fps. This was to moderate the recoil in the carbines.

I duplicate the carbine load with my own cast 405 grain bullets (both Lee and Lyman moulds) at 1,100 fps out of the H&R Trapdoors. This is a very accurate load in the H&Rs and holds 2 MOA out past 300 yards and will clang steel much farther than that. A faster pistol powder provides the velocity as well as good ballistic uniformity for long range shooting and the recoil is certainly tolerable out of light rifles.

If you don't reload, this is probably a good reason to start. A Lee Loader in 45/70 (if you can find one) will get you started in fine shape and commercially cast 405 grain bullets are easy to come by.

By the way, that's a beautiful piece of wood your H&R.

 

[Drm50]

There is a local that has been trying to sell a H&R Officers Model Trap Door for several months. He has $700 on it. Rifle is mint and has long range sight, Lyman dies and some new brass, bullets with it. Looks like a good deal for a person that would want it. The $700 tag puts it in money of a lever action and here in Ohio levers are king.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Gentlemen:

I, too, am a fan of the H&R Trapdoor reproductions. I have owned several original M1873 rifles but never felt comfortable shooting a 140 year old rifle. They all appeared to be in good shape, but who could say what kind of loads it shot 75 years ago? I never shot any of the originals.

Although I have never really liked or been attracted to replica/reproduction/commemorative guns I bought one of the Cavalry carbines. It was and is handsome, well made and fun to shoot. Never had a problem with it, although I did have a pal who shot his own Carbine once and had the Trapdoor pop up unexpectedly. We ascribed that to a bad load but perhaps there was more to it than we realized. I will say that I have never heard of anyone complaining about the H&R Trapdoors, except their relative scarcity.

Because I enjoyed shooting the Carbine I leaped when I had the chance to buy a nice condition Officers Model out of an estate. I have not shot it yet as I am still puzzling over the rear sight which, to my eye, seems rather flimsy and difficult to use. Otherwise, it is a beautiful rifle and a credit to the craftmanship that H&R put into these guns.

In my archives I had saved a copy of the H&R advertisement seen below from the early 1970s which I thought you guys would enjoy seeing.

 

[Farmer17]

QUOTE:
I remember seeing these in stores during the 1960's and 1970's, usually well under $100. Thousands were turned into standing electric lamps, and many more probably didn't survive the WW2 emergency scrap metal drives.

Many years ago when I lived in Georgetown, TX I knew a guy who bought a Trapdoor carbine at an antique store for $75 and it had been made into a standing lamp. He wasn't a gun guy or hunter he was an antique collector but made it back into a rifle and later located an original bullet mold and plier type reloading tool. He became a deer hunter and bagged a deer about every year with it making his own bullets AND homemade black powder! I don't know what his loads were but it didn't kick bad at all and had a nice trigger and I was able to hit a paint can size rock on the side of a hill, off hand at 100 yards. Gun was well-made and accurate and was really fun to shoot!

 

[deadin]

It's my understanding that the Beechblock "popping" open on some of the H&R's was due to the 2 piece cam and shaft that they used. (The originals were milled out of one piece) Sometimes the swaged fit would loosen up and allow the cam to become disengaged.
The solution was to pin the parts, or just use an original cam and shaft. (I've been told they will interchange.)

There is a local that has been trying to sell a H&R Officers Model Trap Door for several months. He has $700 on it.

I could be interested in this one if he would be willing to ship it. I have an original OM but am unwilling to shoot it. (Too valuable and no bore left in it..)

 

[Muley Gil]

I heard about the H&Rs unlocking years ago. I've never owned one.

I have owned an infantry rifle and another rifle cut down to carbine length. I've shot both with modern smokeless loads. The 300 grain bullet round does well in my quasi-carbine.

 

[Seamus O'Caiside]

Have you checked the price of .45-70 factory ammo lately? I don't have a rifle for it, but just out of curiosity I checked out the price on Ammoseek last night. Only one dealer had some, at $3.50 per bullet. Two hours later I looked again. Nobody had any. One dealer had .444 Marlin for $6.50 per boolit. Not per box, per boolit!!!!!!

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

A couple of hints: On H&R trapdoors You want one with a Serial number below 5000. Higher than that are post Bicentennial production, and quality fell quite a bit. A friend has a H&R Officers model in the 300 range, it is as accurate as my Shiloh Sharps!

Tip Two: with all the rifles cut down into carbines a few pointers on how to tell an original. The but plate has no trap door in it and the stock below the butt plate is not drilled! When you cock the hammer, only a real carbine action has 3 clicks to it.

When dating an action, only 4 carbines were made in 1876 (mine and 3 others) so the odds are your 1876 carbine is a fake. (has to do with "Pre Custer" carbines bring a premium.) There were a number of 1870 model carbines at the Little Big Horn, but they were ALL firing at Custer!, so it needs to be a 1873 Model in 45-70, not 50 Carbine! (I have a "Parts" rolling block in 50 Carbine, that is the most fun you can have with a Black Powder cartridge gun! 425 grain bullet and 50 grains FFg. Recoil is very very mild)

NRA condition rules are very loose on antiques, but cavalry carbines and revolvers are suppose to be rough! Mine is a beauty with 5% blue left! If it looks to good to be true, IT IS!

Ivan

 

[BigBill]

I always wanted a 45/70 in a long barrel lever action. Marlin offers it now.

 

[jframejoey]

Art Doc, have you looked into a 45-70 to 45 LC adapter so you can plink with that carbine?

 

[Neversink n Klapperthal]

as beautiful as that rifle is i think i could tolerate the recoil.You do know you press the butt firmly into the shoulder,right?