Trigger options for FS 9

[Gearhead36]

I'm interested in upgrading the trigger on my full size M&P 9. I've done a bit of searching here, and I've found a good amount of info, but nothing comparing the various options. Yeah, maybe a thread on "Should I go with option A or B?", but nothing exploring the various kits and services for upgrading the trigger.

I plan on using this gun for action matches (IDPA, USPSA), and for defense. So I can't put a 2 lb target trigger on it. However, I have a manual safety, so I feel safe going a little lighter than I would otherwise. According to Massad Ayoob, "NRA's minimum pull weight on a 1911 in the Distinguished match is 4.0-lb. This seems to be the minimum pull weight for a duty 1911 recommended by most of its many manufacturers, including Colt." And, "When ordered by police departments, it is Glock policy to install the 5.5-lb. trigger in those models." With my manual safety, I feel that the 4 lb recommendation is more applicable to my gun than the 5.5 lb recommendation for police duty Glocks.

I've looked through the options from Apex, of course. I find the duty/carry action enhancement kit (DCAEK), a competition AEK, a forward set sear (FSS) kit, polymer triggers, aluminum triggers (curved and flat), and writeups on at-home DIY trigger jobs. Also gunsmith services like Burwell who will modify your stock parts.

So... let's start with Apex. What is the difference in the competition AEK and the DCAEK? is it just trigger weight? How does the FSS kit compare? "Forward Set Sear" sounds like a change to the geometry. Apex states that it moves the trigger break point forward. Why would you want to do this?

What does the Apex flat trigger do that the curved triggers don't?

How do the Apex kits compare to a trigger job from a gunsmith like Burwell?

Which of these options are suitable for defense, and which for competition only? Apex claims that the DCAEK is suitable for defense and the competition kit is for competition only. But I don't see any usage recommendation for the FSS kits.

I would think that a gunsmith could give better results than a drop-in kit, except maybe the drop-in kit could alter the geometry. If that geometry change works for you, then grinding and polishing on the stock parts is not likely to give the same results.

Anything else I should consider?

Do these kits and trigger jobs have any impact on the force with which the striker hits the primers? I.e., light strikes?

How do these kits and trigger jobs affect the reset?

 

[Danw791]

If you are happy with the factory trigger feel itself and just want to lighten and smooth it just buy an apex sear and either polish the striker block yourself or buy apex's striker block. This will give you a 4 1/2 to 5 lb smooth trigger. If you don't like the trigger reach (length of pull for your trigger finger) then get the forward set sear with a flat faced trigger. This changes the geometry and moved the trigger breaking point forward and also reduced takup and total trigger movement.

 

[Gearhead36]

If you are happy with the factory trigger feel itself

Happy? Not sure. It's not gritty, and doesn't have excessive creep for a duty gun, but at least for me, it needs to be lightened so I can get a better feel for it.

If you don't like the trigger reach (length of pull for your trigger finger) then get the forward set sear with a flat faced trigger. This changes the geometry and moved the trigger breaking point forward and also reduced takup and total trigger movement.

OK. Thanks. BTW, all of the Apex kits reduce takeup and overtravel.

 

[Blinx64]

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PUUXM0K/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me="]Amazon.com : Apex Tactical Flat Faced Forward Set Sear Kit : Sports & Outdoors@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jDLrN9hSL.@@AMEPARAM@@41jDLrN9hSL[/ame]

I have the above kit in my M&P 9. I have not tested it, but it does feel as though it reduced the trigger pull to about 3.5 to 4 pounds. I love this trigger. Words can not express how much better it is than just about any trigger I have ever experienced. The only one I can think of that was better was on my friends G19, which he had a gunsmith do a very expensive custom trigger job on.

There is almost no take up or over travel with this trigger. One you depress the blade safety, you're at the wall. It's beautiful.

I also put XS Big Dot sights on my M&P. Another GREAT decision. Next I plan on getting the Apex barrel for it. I just wish they made a threaded one.

 

[Danw791]

I have a new m&p full size 9 and liked the trigger as it was (smooth and crisp from the factory with a great reset) except its pull measured 7.5 lbs. I had a performance center sear from my core that I dropped in and it took it down to 4.5 to 5 without changing anything else. Supposedly the apex sear and performance center sear are similar in geometry that's why I recommend just putting the sear in to drop the weight.

Now my core I was never happy with the longer pull so I installed the forward set sear and flat trigger with their competition springs. Turned it into a 3 lb trigger with minimal pretravel, no over travel, and a very short crisp reset.

Hope this helps.

 

[Gearhead36]

all of the Apex kits reduce takeup and overtravel.

I need to recind that. All Apex kits reduce overtravel. Replacing the stock hinged trigger with an Apex is what reduces takeup, so if you get a kit without an external trigger, takeup won't improve. In fact, with the AEK's I think it will get worse, as the break point will move rearward.

I've installed Apex Comp and Duty/Carry kits on customers' guns, did my own sear mods and polishing on my M&P 45 and polishing on my M&P Pro 9mm. Apex Kits yield the best results but it only cost me a little time to do the work on my own guns and the results are much better than stock.

I like the low cost option of modding stock parts, but I've decided that if I ever decide to sell, I want to be able to return it to stock. I'll just sell the aftermarket parts separately. And there's probably less liability risk with Apex parts vs diy gunsmithed parts.

And this discussion on ingunowners.com in which someone installed an Apex sear, but not the striker block, and the results were bad. It wasn't until he installed the Apex striker block that the trigger went from crappy to great. That conversation was from 2010, so that may have been on a gun that was a couple of mods ago.

I have a new m&p full size 9 and liked the trigger as it was (smooth and crisp from the factory with a great reset) except its pull measured 7.5 lbs. I had a performance center sear from my core that I dropped in and it took it down to 4.5 to 5 without changing anything else. Supposedly the apex sear and performance center sear are similar in geometry that's why I recommend just putting the sear in to drop the weight.

Hmmm. Different result than the ingunowners.com poster had. S&W must have improved the striker block from the early versions.

Now my core I was never happy with the longer pull so I installed the forward set sear and flat trigger with their competition springs. Turned it into a 3 lb trigger with minimal pretravel, no over travel, and a very short crisp reset.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the AEK's move the break point rearward, increasing takeup, unless you install an Apex trigger. Even then, I would think, the takeup will not be that great. However, an M&P owner with a Apex comp AEK with poly trigger let me try his. It was very nice. Didn't seem to have much takeup or overtravel. Reducing takeup and overtravel seems like it would require a geometry change, which the AEK's don't have. So I'm a little confused at how this could be. Replacing of the stock hinged trigger will reduce the perceived takeup, and perceived total trigger travel. Maybe the takeup on a stock gun is very good, but doesn't feel like due to the hinged trigger. It sounds like the FSS kit moves the break point back forward, and almost eliminates takeup and overtravel by virtue of a different sear geometry. Is this correct?

Hope this helps.

Thanks.

 

[Gearhead36]

Another question. After doing trigger work, or installing an Apex kit, will the trigger weight change after a few thousand rounds? I want to target 4 lbs for my trigger weight. If it is going to lighten up a bit after a few thousand rounds, I might ought to target 4.25 or 4.5.

 

[Gearhead36]

Here is an interesting discussion (with photo) of various M&P sears. Shows old & new stock sears, a PC sear, and 2 Apex (AEK and FSS) sears.

The angle (on the back of the sear) is such that to pull the trigger, the sear must slightly retract the striker. This is responsible for most of the M&Ps trigger weight and a good deal of the grittiness. It is also why S&W calls the guns DAO.

The Apex sears don't have this angle. The back of their sears are almost flat, effectively making the gun SAO. This is why just dropping in an Apex sear lowers the trigger pull. This also means that the striker doesn't get retracted as it would with a stock or PC sear. Meaning lighter strikes, but I don't know by how much. Anyone with Apex kits having problems with light strikes?

Also, would this lesser striker engagement be a concern for safety (higher chance of discharge) if the weapon gets dropped?

Looking at these photos, I think I would favor a PC sear. Can those be purchased?

 

[Gearhead36]

An update.

I had the opportunity to let an experienced shooter (IDPA Master, and NRA instructor) try my gun. At first, he dry fired it, and deemed it acceptable. Not great, but perfectly acceptable for a duty gun. I shot 6 rounds, then he shot 6 rounds through it. I put 3 on target, and 3 went low. All 6 of his went low & left. He said that it has a slight glitch right before the break. He shot it some more at some steel targets, getting some misses and some good hits. He said that you CAN work through it with enough skill and concentration, which I consider unacceptable for a defense weapon. It is my belief that any such weapon be easy to use in a high stress situation. He made some good hits with it, but even then, he was shooting slow. He then pulled out his Glock 22 and got several quick and accurate hits. He said that I should probably get a trigger kit.

Before I spend any money, though, I'm going to take it apart, and see if there are any burrs or rough spots on the spur, striker, striker block, and trigger bar.

 

[McE]

Get the Apex competition action enhancement kit. It does everything the duty kit does but with more flexibility.

 

[Gearhead36]

Get the Apex competition action enhancement kit. It does everything the duty kit does but with more flexibility.

I'm actually leaning toward the FFS kit with polymer trigger. It moves the break point forward (the AEK's move it rearward), and it comes with two trigger return springs, one for a 4 lb pull weight, and one for 5 lbs. I still want to use the gun for defense, so I would likely go with the 5 lb spring.

 

[McE]

Not sure where you read that the AEK moves the break point rearward, but good luck with whatever you decide. Sounds like you've done enough research where any personal experiences will probably conflict with stuff you've read elsewhere.

 

[Gearhead36]

Not sure where you read that the AEK moves the break point rearward, but good luck with whatever you decide. Sounds like you've done enough research where any personal experiences will probably conflict with stuff you've read elsewhere.

Are you saying that the AEK's do not move the break point rearward? I never actually read that it did, but I concluded that from a few data points.

One, Burwell's writeup of his trigger job.... He cuts an angle into the sear, which moves the break point rearward. This is how the overtravel is improved.
Two, If you look at the S&W Pro sear and the Apex AEK sear, they both have an angle similar to what Burwell cuts into the stock sear.
Three, Apex claims that the AEK's improve overtravel, but not takeup. I believe that they improve overtravel by putting the break point closer to the trigger stop, just like a Burwell trigger job.

The literature for the FSS kits state that they move the break point forward. So, one moves it rearward, and one moves it forward. Which is better? The FSS states improvements in takeup and overtravel, so I'm leaning toward one of those. But at the same time, the AEK's work with the stock trigger, so if I wanted to stick with a stock class, an AEK would be the better choice.

 

[tenntucker]

I don't see what division you plan to shoot in USPSA. Being a 9mm, to be competitive, you would need to shoot in Production. That being said, your only option for the trigger is the competition spring kit and sear. Can't install the FSS or flat faced trigger.

 

[McE]

I built up the hump in the trigger guard to tune the overtravel. Break point moving slightly forward doesn't make a difference to me.
And I think your assumptions based on pictures of sears without actual measurements is not rigorous enough to make up your mind as you seem to have.

 

[Gearhead36]

I built up the hump in the trigger guard to tune the overtravel. Break point moving slightly forward doesn't make a difference to me.

I'm not positive, but I think moving the break point would matter to me. When I change out the backstraps, my POI moves. As the backstrap size decreases, my POI moves right. I think that it's primarily due to the reach to the trigger.

And I think your assumptions based on pictures of sears without actual measurements is not rigorous enough to make up your mind as you seem to have.

One of the reasons I started this thread was to get people's experiences with various kits and trigger jobs. Not many have chimed in, so I'm left to make conclusions based on my own research. I would welcome any data based on actual experiences.

 

[DMSC]

I have multiple Apex equipped M&P's. Here's what I've settled on...

Note that all of these have been polished and tweaked a bit as well as having the Apex parts installed.


2006 M&P FS 9 - Used for IDPA SSP so no Apex AEK trigger.

CAEK kit using a factory trigger return spring.

Result is a trigger pull of 4lbs. I mention the year because I've found that the same set-up used in newer guns results in a pull weight of 4.5 to 5lbs. Not sure why.


2009 M&P 9c - Used for Carry/IDPA CCP Division.

DCAEK kit using the factory trigger return spring and a polymer AEK trigger.

Result is a trigger pull of 6lbs.


2012 M&P 45c - Used for Carry.

DCAEK kit using the factory trigger return spring and a polymer AEK trigger.

Result is a trigger pull of 6lbs.


2012 M&P Shield 9 - Used for Carry/IDPA CCP Division.

DCAEK kit using the factory trigger return spring.

Result is a trigger pull of 6lbs.


2013 M&P Pro 5" 9mm - Used for IDPA ESP Division.

Aluminum FSS kit using the factory trigger return spring.

Result is a trigger pull of 3.25lbs. No way I'd carry this one or use it as SD/HD gun...unless it's all I had. Trigger pull is too light and the trigger travel reduced to almost 1911 style.

 

[Gearhead36]

DSMC, thanks for the info. How do the various Apex kits affect the break points? I.e. move it forward, rearward, or no change?

 

[McE]

You touched on part of the reason that break point is irrelevant. The backstraps will affect the pistol's length of pull to fit you.

But the bigger reason, in my experience, is that the difference in break point is just a difference in pre-travel. And the difference in pre-travel is a distance that is the lightest part of the trigger pull. The weight to get across the break is what's important.

All of my M&P's use an Apex competition trigger return spring. Everything that happens before the break point is really light. Trying to discern a difference between trivial fractions of an inch in the pre-travel means you are overthinking something that has nothing to do with how you shoot. You're a good candidate for paralysis by analysis.

 

[Gearhead36]

You touched on part of the reason that break point is irrelevant. The backstraps will affect the pistol's length of pull to fit you.

I prefer the feel of the medium backstrap. And at the break point, the part of my finger that contacts the trigger is not angled forward or rearward. If the break point moves forward or rearward, I'll have to switch to another backstrap that may not fit my hand as well.

But the bigger reason, in my experience, is that the difference in break point is just a difference in pre-travel. And the difference in pre-travel is a distance that is the lightest part of the trigger pull. The weight to get across the break is what's important.

I disagree. The biggest difference (and improvement) in the Apex kits is reducing the overtravel, and making the break much more crisp and smooth. I believe that this results in a less-than-perfect trigger pull having less effect on the POI.

All of my M&P's use an Apex competition trigger return spring. Everything that happens before the break point is really light. Trying to discern a difference between trivial fractions of an inch in the pre-travel means you are overthinking something that has nothing to do with how you shoot. You're a good candidate for paralysis by analysis.

I'm not really concerned about the pre-travel (I call it take-up). I'm more concerned with the break point, and the overtravel..