Trigger stud proper installation, can't send the gun to S&W.

[AleAlonso]

I've been reading the 'smithing section all the afternoon, as there are many topics related to situations I've had or seen with S&W revolvers. It's been worth the time and, above all, the FAQ thread was very useful.

Well, the facts are I've bought a 27-5 (BHY 3155) and has/had some problems.
I tried the revolver prior to buying it and felt the double action was horrible, but thought some simple issue was causing it, as I know these guns have lovely actions.
Purchased it anyways and came home to solve the problem.
Whe I was taking it apart I noticed the screws were loose and blamed recoil for it. Then I saw the double action sear had been "worked" Nothing to worry, I thought, I have a stainless one in a bobbed hammer that someone gave to me. I replaced the offended part and reassembled the gun, correctly tightening the screws.
The result? A binded action, impossible to use in double action.
I disassembled it again, decided to do it completely and when I intended to pull the trigger out I saw what was happening: who "worked" the action before me was a very bad gunsmith (just to give him a title) I think he pried the trigger to pull it out of the gun before taking the rebound slide off and ended loosening the trigger stud and taking it off. I imagine he panicked and, using the trigger as a handle, tried to put it back as if it was a nail, hammering on it and bulging/twisting it's head. In a few words, he riveted it to the trigger.
The bulge at the stud's head was bigger than the hole in the side plate it must fit in and, as it was twisted, I think it pushed the trigger causing the rebound slide to rub against the side plate and, thus, binding the gun when the side plate screws were fully tightened .

Not to make this an endless story, the fact is that I sanded the stud's head bulge to take it off from the trigger's hole and now I need a new stud and directions to properly install it without sending the gun to S&W because I don't live in the United States.
I had once before a loose trigger stud in an old 629 and I fixed it by bonding it with a -kind of- thread lock (I don't know the english name for it) but it was different, as it went through the frame and had a tighter fit. This one doesn't, or it's broken because the hole it fits in doesn't go through the frame. Is it that way or is it broken?

Well, I hope someone understands me, as english is not my native language (I assume you've all realized it by now Huh?) and it's a bit difficult for me to explain what happened.

I'll post pictures to clarify this "tale" when I disassemble the gun again.

Regards, Alejandro.

 

[chief38]

Alejandro,
Sorry to hear about your dilemma, we've all been "skunked" at one time or another.

If you could post some photo's of the damage, I might be able to give you a few suggestions.

I think I understood what you described, but I really need to see what you have left to work with (undamaged), as I have a few different ideas in my head depending on how bad it is. I'll check back tomorrow to see if you have sent photos.

Regards,
Chief38

 

[AleAlonso]

Alejandro,
Sorry to hear about your dilemma, we've all been "skunked" at one time or another.

If you could post some photo's of the damage, I might be able to give you a few suggestions.

I think I understood what you described, but I really need to see what you have left to work with (undamaged), as I have a few different ideas in my head depending on how bad it is. I'll check back tomorrow to see if you have sent photos.

Regards,
Chief38

Thank you, chief38!
I was a bit sad to see the number of views going up and the post still without any replies.
I'll post some pictures later.
I have to say the previous owner came home yesterday and gave me my money back, he's a good man and is very interested in either having the gun back (fixed) or selling it but just if I like how it works after fixing it.
It also has a hammer nose/hammer nose bushing drag issue. Some shims and a bag of rebound slide springs are coming from Brownell's. This has become a challenge for me, such a fine gun can't be working this bad. I'm no gunsmith but I'm sure I'll put it on his path again and make it a fine shooter.

Thanks, Alejandro.

 

[WR Moore]

Either S&W or Numrich Arms/Gun Parts Inc. can sell you a trigger stud. I've never installed one myself, but I believe the process is to drive the stud in and then polish the frame so that the line of the hole blends in.

I expect you used red Loc-Tite (stud & bearing mount) in the other case. This will fill up to 0.015 inches and can be a premanent repair, but may present some appearance issues.

The elegant fix would be drilling the frame and installing a bushing, which would allow the trigger stud to be fitted normally, but would require refinishing and really,really careful machine work.

Every broken S&W frame stud I've seen has had a hammer as the root cause. If the sideplate won't fit, they get out a hammer.

 

[AleAlonso]

The photos:
Doesn't she look fine?



Notice the dent at the end of the trigger stud



The hammer at the left is from this gun and has a new sear, the other one has the "worked" sear I had to take off. Notice the filed part where there should be an edge.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[AleAlonso]

More pictures

I sanded with a Dremel the dent at the end of the stud to take it from the trigger. It was acting as a rivet



The hook of the trigger is Ok, I think.


The place where the stud should be attached. It isn't badly damaged and the stud fits in it quite well. I think some kind of bonding aided with a slightly oversized stud could fix this permanently. What do you think?


I found it like this (imagine the bulge at the end), it couldn't be taken off from the trigger.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[AleAlonso]

A few more...

It's hard to see it in the picture, but the stud is bent and that's why the trigger has badly worn it, I think.



The trigger has cut two grooves on the stud. I think that's because the stud was bent.



The inner face of the sideplate. It's hard to see, but the bulged stud dented the hole where it must fit.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[AleAlonso]

Either S&W or Numrich Arms/Gun Parts Inc. can sell you a trigger stud. I've never installed one myself, but I believe the process is to drive the stud in and then polish the frame so that the line of the hole blends in.

I expect you used red Loc-Tite (stud & bearing mount) in the other case. This will fill up to 0.015 inches and can be a premanent repair, but may present some appearance issues.

The elegant fix would be drilling the frame and installing a bushing, which would allow the trigger stud to be fitted normally, but would require refinishing and really,really careful machine work.

Every broken S&W frame stud I've seen has had a hammer as the root cause. If the sideplate won't fit, they get out a hammer.

Thank you for your reply, sir.
And take a look at the pictures, they speak much better than me

The loose stud on that 629 "went through" the frame, I aligned it the way it was polished and bonded it with the Suprabond (that's the brand I used) after that, you couldn't tell if it had moved but you could see it, as occurs in many guns.
I don't see this one goes through to the other side, Should it?

In that case, the problem is worse than I thought and don't want the gun anymore. Refinishing is not an option, as you can see, the gun looks pretty good as it is. I'm sure the owner won't agree to a refinish, he thinks he has a treasure in his hands.

I have a friend that was a machinist in the army's arsenal batallion near our city, maybe he can think of some way to fix this without having to replace the stud and polish the frame.

Regarding buying a stud online, the only company that I found has it in their catalog is MidwayUSA, but it is as a "backorder 60+ days" and, anyways, they don't ship out of the US. "And that's the way it is"
Brownell's and Numrich don't have studs at this moment.

Regards, Alejandro.

 

[WR Moore]

Very nice pictures. Given the condition of the hammer stud, I certainly wouldn't either re-use it or use it as a sample for measurements.

You might try emailing S&W and see if there's some way they could supply you with the part. The only issue I see in machining one is not knowing the hardness of the original pin-unless your friend can test the current part.

The blind hole is an acceptable way to install the stud. If the stud was in better shape, it'd be worth trying a chemical adhesive, like the one you mentioned. Otherwise, you friend is going to be taking measurements and machining little parts if S&W can't find a way to get the piece to you.

Best of luck.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Hello Alejandro.

If S&W won't send you the part, you can fix it yourself. I measured a 29-2 here, so hopefully the pin size is the same.

You need to find a #38 drill bit. The shank of the drill is exactly the size you need. The drill measures 2.566mm or .101 inch.

Normally the pins are threaded in or pressed in. It requires drilling thru the frame, then the outside of the gun is refinished.

I'd use the #38 drill and clean up the burrs on the inside of the side plate. Stone any high spots clean.

Then I'd drill out the original pin to save the "boss" area of the pin. You need this area to position the trigger at the correct positon inside the frame.

Without drilling thru your frame try a strong loctite product and fit the parts into the frame, then attach the side plate and let dry over night. Remember to totally clean up all the parts so they are oil free, before using the locktite. Don't use locktite on the side plate!

The next day, after the pin is fixed into the frame, clean up any areas that are still wet, then put on our trigger and it should be fine.

Remember even if the pin works it's way loose again, it is supported on both sides of the frame. The pin can't fall out without removing the side plate. The gun will be fixed without damaging the outside of the gun.

If this won't work then you must drill thru the frame and refinish it.

Good luck.

 

[AleAlonso]

Very nice pictures. Given the condition of the hammer stud, I certainly wouldn't either re-use it or use it as a sample for measurements.

You might try emailing S&W and see if there's some way they could supply you with the part. The only issue I see in machining one is not knowing the hardness of the original pin-unless your friend can test the current part.

The blind hole is an acceptable way to install the stud. If the stud was in better shape, it'd be worth trying a chemical adhesive, like the one you mentioned. Otherwise, you friend is going to be taking measurements and machining little parts if S&W can't find a way to get the piece to you.

Best of luck.

Thanks again, WR.
I had an idea today and think it might work but it's all on my lathe expert friend's hands.
If it works I'll post new pictures. It includes making a stud with a threaded boss and threading the boss' hole. Threading the hole demands making a special tap because I need the thread to go right to the bottom of the hole.
I know it's difficult, but this guy has made more difficult parts for tank aiming systems, optical equipment like collimators and telemeters (yes, before there were laser devices), headspace nut for Browning .50 machineguns, and the list is almost endless.

Regards, Alejandro.

 

[AleAlonso]

Hello Alejandro.

If S&W won't send you the part, you can fix it yourself. I measured a 29-2 here, so hopefully the pin size is the same.

You need to find a #38 drill bit. The shank of the drill is exactly the size you need. The drill measures 2.566mm or .101 inch.

Normally the pins are threaded in or pressed in. It requires drilling thru the frame, then the outside of the gun is refinished.

I'd use the #38 drill and clean up the burrs on the inside of the side plate. Stone any high spots clean.

Then I'd drill out the original pin to save the "boss" area of the pin. You need this area to position the trigger at the correct positon inside the frame.

Without drilling thru your frame try a strong loctite product and fit the parts into the frame, then attach the side plate and let dry over night. Remember to totally clean up all the parts so they are oil free, before using the locktite. Don't use locktite on the side plate!

The next day, after the pin is fixed into the frame, clean up any areas that are still wet, then put on our trigger and it should be fine.

Remember even if the pin works it's way loose again, it is supported on both sides of the frame. The pin can't fall out without removing the side plate. The gun will be fixed without damaging the outside of the gun.

If this won't work then you must drill thru the frame and refinish it.

Good luck.

Hi Mr. 500!
Great thread the FAQ you posted, thanks for taking the time to upload all that information. Very useful!

Regarding the repair, Wouldn't using the drill bit add another part to be bonded and another possibility of fail?
I think making a new stud would be better in this case.
I have a 28-2 to take measurements from. Thanks for the measures you posted here, now the only one I don't have is the length, but that's an easy one.

I had an idea today (sometimes it just happens ) and I think it might work well. It's posted above this, What do you think?

Well, I'll update as soon as I have a result...

Regards, Alejandro.

 

[chief38]

AleAlonso,

That's quite a shame since the gun looks so beautiful on the outside.

There are a few options here.

1) Try a new factory stud and see how it fits. I know that the Factory finishes the guns AFTER the stud is fit and ground even with the frame, but with some skill, patients and time you can get the stud to fit fairly well; trial & error. A little cold bluing on the outer piece that shows and some staking in and you be able to get the gun up and running., Remember, once the side plate goes back on, the stud can't move. It will not look perfect, but I have done this and they do come out acceptable with some persistence.

2) I do believe that S&W still has some of their old style studs left (must get them from their custom shop) that have a larger head. They are made "to show" from the outside of the gun, but look just like the older models do. They can be fitted to a newer gun and unless someone knew it was not meant to be that way, it would look and function well. They used to come already blued, and since there is no external fitting, looks wise you would be in business.

3) If you have someone who works in a machine shop, he could make you an oversize stud and you could custom fit it. Again, patience and persistence in combination with some skill is definitely required.

I guess since you stated that you are going to get your money returned, this is all a moot point, but the revolver cam definitely be salvaged. On a blued gun, the repair is a little more forgiving than a stainless gun because of the darker color.

Regards,
Chief38

 

[Tyrod]

I don't remember if it was this forum or one of the other gun forums I occasionally visit. But, IIRC there was a colt that had a pin repair and the outside of the gun looked like it had a pop rivet in it. I realize it prolly wasn't a pop rivet, but it sure looked like one and it were real ugly.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Alejandro, if your friend has a lathe, that would be my first choice. Most people don't have a lathe so I think of another option for these people.

I'd just press it into the original hole. Go .0005-.001 inch bigger than the hole and use a mallet to seat it. Use the locktite on that as well. Let it dry over night and your gun is fixed!

By the way, your english is perfect! You sound like you lived your whole life around here.

I do chat with a fellow from spain, on another forum, boy oh boy he is hard to understand at times.
Good luck

 

[WR Moore]

On a hole that small about 0.0005 in. is about as oversize as you're going to get and still have a prayer of getting it in. Shink fit is always possible, we did a lot of those one place I worked. However, in this case all you can really do is chill the part with dry ice before driving it.

BTW, when fastbolt mentions driving it in with a mallet, he means use a mallet on the specialized driver you're going to need to put the force on the boss of the pin. NOT whack the head of the pin.

 

[AleAlonso]

Gentlemen, thank you all for your kind replies.
I've been a few hours at the machinist's and came home with an oversized replacement stud.
We had to drop the idea of threading the hole and the boss of the stud, because to avoid entering the hole out of square we had to make a tap with an internal sliding guide and it was complicated and didn't add much to the solution of the problem.
So, Horacio turned a slightly oversized new stud and a "tool" to drive it in without damaging it's end or other parts of the revolver.
The stud was turned from 4140 steel and will be cold blued so nobody will notice it at a glance.
We're not going to defraud anyone, it's just that I won't keep the gun and the owner wants it just like if it was original.

The stud is going to be drived in and bonded to the frame and I hope it won't move again, unless somebody messes with it.

The owner and me (and at least one of you) wanted to shrink it using ice, a freezer, etc but it's hot and humid here right now and a cold piece of steel will condense moisture the exact moment you take it out of the freezer, dry ice, or whatever source of cold you have, so we dropped that idea too.

Here are some pics...

A little protection, for whatever might happen


Horacio at work.


An almost finished new stud and the old one.



"The tool"


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


I'll update with pictures of the installation process and final results. (Hope they're final and it works ok)


Regards, Alejandro.

 

[Hondo44]

I'm thinking i But after all your work, why not keep it?f you're not gonna keep it, just take your money back and give the gun back the way you got it.

 

[AleAlonso]

Well, I had the gun disassembled on my bench and this guy came home to give my money back. I thought it was a bit rude assembling it and givin g it back just like that. Besides, he's going to pay me for the repair (my first earning as a "gunsmith" WOOOAAA!!)
I was paying high dollar for this one (they are rare and elusive in my country) but don't want it in this condition and at that price. He's never going to lower it to the price now I think would be fair Sooo....let him keep it and pay me for the work!
I'll wait for a flawless gun.

Regards, Alejandro.

 

[dlbx2]

Well.................this kind of stuff is why I would NEVER take the sideplate off a revolver. My hat is off to you guys who go through the effort to learn to do this. This has been some of the most interesting reading that I have seen in a while! And the photos are equally interesting!
DLB