triple lock help

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drcree

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gooday,

i recently purchased a Smith Triple Lock in .455 Webley calibre and noticed yesterday there is no firing pin bushing. i tried numrich, jack first and now hoping some of you collectors can help me locate one so i get this ole dog back into action. any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. thanks.

also, do you think a firing pin bushing from a smith revolver in .45 ACP would work or be close enough to be fit?
 
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Welcome to the forum!

Any N frame FP bushing will be the same pre 1999 when the floating/frame mounted firing pin was introduced.

Call S&W and ask for the "hammer nose bushing". Hammer nose is what S&W calls the firing pin. Ask for one for a Model 25 with the hammer nose (firing pin) mounted on the hammer, pre model 25-11 (1999 or older.)

Have you checked with any local shops if you have local shops? Post an adv on this forum under the classified section?

My sources to check:

S&W CS/Parts Dept
By Telephone:
1-800-331-0852 (USA)
Mon-Fri 8:00AM-8:00PM Eastern Time
Live Chat here:
Contact Us - Smith & Wesson

Good sources you probably use already are E-bay and Gunbroker. Set up a search for "smith wesson parts".

"Aonepawninc" http://stores.ebay.com/aonepawninc
has a bunch of S&W parts for sale. I just ordered a complete hammer for my pre model 30 from them. They are very customer oriented and have very reasonable prices. 1/10/16

Dave Bennett: Parts and guns from 1900 up to 1970's.
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: www.22ammobox.com

David Clements - Clements Custom Guns
PH: 276-238-8761
2766 Mt. Zion Rd.
Woodlawn, VA 24381
[email protected]
Clements Custom Guns

Charlie Duffy: Parts for Pre-WWII S&W's.
Phone: 845-679-8136
e-Mail: [email protected]

Jim Horvath: Many parts for all S&W's (large and small) from 1860 up;
can reproduce parts.
e-Mail: [email protected]

Jeff Lee: Lee's Gun Parts (an extensive supply of gun parts, including S&W)
(Open to the public on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays).
3401 W. Pioneer, Suite 2, Irving, TX 75061
Phone: 972-790-0773
Parallels H-Sphere

Jan Matlega: Parts for Pre-WWII S&W hand-ejectors.
Mail Address: 528 Eddy Glover
New Britain, CT 06053
Phone: 860-229-6872

Poppert's Gun Parts: http://www.poppertsgunparts.com/
P.O. Box 413
Glenside, PA 19038
Tel: 215-887-2391 Fax: 215-887-5816
Email: [email protected]

Charlie Pate: Provides screws (original & reproduction) for S&W Tip-ups and Top-breaks; author of books and articles on S&W guns.
Phone: 703-533-8057
e-Mail: [email protected]

Phil Saccacio: Phone: 540-456-6405
e-Mail: [email protected]

Dave Szilagy: Manufacture's parts for older S&W's.
Mail Address: 3107 Electric, Lincoln Park, MI 48146
e-Mail: [email protected]

Mike Veilleux: Guns and Gun Parts
All Parts inc. for Pre- and Post-WWII S&W's.
Phone: 413-732-9938
e-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: www.gunsnparts.com

Liberty Tree Collectors Phone:207-285-3111
139 Main Street, Corinth, ME 04427
Email:[email protected]
Liberty tree collectors has original, CCH lanyard rings (but without the retaining pin) for $25.

S&W Parts; antique and new
[email protected]
Ph: 352 394-7412
 
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That's cool, so many have been converted to other calibers. Some very cleverly so they will shoot more readily available ammo like 45 Auto Rim or 45 Colt, but in each case, still shoot the 455 safely.

Will you reload the 455?
 
that was my plan, but as with anything else, the brass is gone, ammunition is hard to find and good dies are expensive.
recently i bought a .257 Roberts (actually 2 of them) and planned on turning them into 40 degree Ackleys--which happened. couldn't find .257 Roberts loose brass so a bought some cartridges ($$$), then figured i should get more brass since one rifle may not shoot the other's cartridges, so bought 100- 7mm Mauser cases to covert to Roberts to convert to Ackley.
thus far it has worked out very well.
i bought the Webley because my wife is a fanatic over the .45 ACP but had hand surgery so can't shoot as well as previous. the Webley would provide a mite less recoil for her---plus in a Smith, it's a really unique piece.
 
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Lee 455 Webley dies (3 carbide) are $35 shipped, from anybody - ebay, etc.

Brass now - that's a different story. It took me a long time to round-up some factory Fiocchi 455 ammo, I paid $1 per round - and, I was glad to get it. The going rate seems to be approx. $2 per round for factory loaded ammo and $1 for brass. All I can tell you is; place ads in all the WTB sections of the gun sites. That's how I found mine.

One more thought:
There's one type of conversion that will not hurt a "SHOOTER GRADE" 455 in my opinion. Properly recessing and lengthening the chambers to accept 45 Long Colt is a real handy conversion. But, ONLY on an already shooter grade 455. I would NOT do any conversion on a collector grade 455. Maybe one of the S&W Illuminati like Hondo44 will give a second opinion on this subject. He calls this conversion "clever" above, and I agree. I would trust his opinion over mine.
Good find & good luck,
Jeb
 
considering today's pricing, $35.0 isn't too awfully bad.

yeah the brass is a real kicker. i have some lines out for the fiocchi .455 webley ammunition but have received nothing yet. what i actually thought about doing was using some .45 acp cartridges with moon clips. from what i have been reading, it seems a feasible alternative. have you ever heard of doing that?
this one is definitely a shooter and one to spark the imagination. just holding an old trooper like this one make one wonder where it's been.

whomever had this previously was not very kind to it--cosmetically. it's all surficial so that really doesn't matter to me. internally, this piece is tight and solid as a rock. i was pleasantly surprised.
the modification sounds interesting but i would rather have it in the unique calibre. how does yours react with the .45 colt?
thanks for the insight!
 
drcree,

Since your skilled in converting brass, there's much simpler options to get brass for your 455. No modifications of the gun are needed.

Any of the following much more easily obtainable brass can be used simply be turning down the case head rim thickness from the top side of the rim:

45 Colt Special available here: Products
45 AR brass is available from Starline

The following cases need shortening of the cases in addition to turning down the rim:

45 Schofield
45 Colt
44-40
38-40

All of the above can be reloaded in 45 ACP dies once shortened, using a 45 colt shellholder, and taper crimped. Or 45 Colt dies with a shortened crimp die to roll crimp them.

NOTE: Use the largest 45 bullet you can find since the 455 bore is larger than 45 Colt/45 ACP.
 
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I have bought Hornady .455 Mark II cartridges at Cabel's. I don't see it listed on Hornady's website, so it could be they discontinued it. If there is a Cabel's near you, it may be worth checking to see if they still have some in stock.

Fiocchi makes .455 Mk II / Midway has it (Update: I just noticed Midway lists it as unavailable) :
Fiocchi Ammo 455 Webley Mark 2 262 Grain Lead Round Nose Box of 50

Buffalo Arms has .455 Colt Mark I Brass (0.890" in length) in stock. Note that this is identical to .455 Webley Mk I. Your revolver will chamber it and you can find loading data for it if you look:
Reloading Supplies|Buffalo Arms Company

Buffalo Arms also lists .455 Mark II Brass (0.770" in length) converted from .45 Colt cases, but it is temporarily out of stock.
455 Webley Cases|Reloading Supplies
 
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Qdrcree,
I am always, "always" a proponent of finding or making ammunition to fit the "Old Gun" rather than altering the old gun for ease of obtaining more readily available ammunition.
I collect old, short chambered shotguns and many are Pinfire. I wouldn't consider lenghting the chambers on them. The Pinfire shells are incredibly hard to make, but I do it. When I do make them, they are all solid brass and last a very long time with just occasional pin replacement (easy to make with just brass rod).
The reason I'm bringing all this up is because Pinfire shells require that the rims be trimmed and thinned. Your 455's from host calibers require this also. The only way to accomplish this is with a lathe. I have a friend with a machine shop who will turn these for me in small batches, as a favor - with the liberal application of top shelf wiskey and his choice of my unsuspecting offspring. If you have no such friend, it's gonna be expensive to get the 455 rims turned down. I've heard of it being done with a drill press and safe edge file but I'm very sceptical without seeing and measuring them for consistent quality. I have done extensive testing with shotshells (and bigger is always easier), and found it impossible to get that consistent quality without a lathe. There's also an Australian company who (supposedly) converts other brass (45lc I think) to 455 at $2 per copy, but good luck with that, I tried that route and couldn't even get a credible response via email. I know of no source to obtain 455 ammo or brass except trolling and advertising on the various gun sites.
So, I think the options are these:
1- Leave the unaltered S&W as-is (bless you if you do) and wait for 455 ammo or brass to surface.
2 - Have the knowledge and tooling to convert a "host round" to 455 Webley.
3 - Find a whisky drinking machine shop owner - and befriend him post haste.
4 - The clever 45 Long Colt conversion on your "shooter grade" revolver.
The 45 ACP round with clips that you mention, requires shaving the cylinder and as I have stated before, I think that's a bad conversion for the wrong high pressure cartridge.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents, and worth every penny.
Jeb
Edit to add:
One of my 455 revolvers already had the clever 45 LC conversion when I bought it. I'm glad that it did, because I don't know that I could have brought myself to do it. I'm glad someone else did though - It's handy as can be and I can remain the blameless conservator.
 
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there is some really great information here guys! thanks-o-plenty. i did order an M25 hammer nose bushing and it arrived today. regrettably, it is too small a diameter and too thick. of course, that wasn't the only thing i ordered so i told my wife that bushing was gonna be costly---so at least it wasn't a total loss.
hondo you mentioned some .45 schofields. i just made a couple of those for a friend for his .45 colt revolver and do have so .45 colt laying around. have to give it a try.
jack, i have been looking at all the places you mentioned and honestly, cabelas, as of late, has been more a disappointment than anything else. they are high retail and never seem to have what i need. midway generally takes care of that and they seem to have more of what i need readily available--and cheaper.
jeb, i don't know a whiskey drinking machine but did find some humour in that. thanks!
for what it's worth, i'm not going to convert the ole dog. it's a four digit double stamp and doesn't deserve to be changed.
you all have provided me some excellent input and insight and thank you tremendously for all of it.
 
Well that's a bummer.

Where did you order the hammer nose bushing from? What vintage is it, newer than model 25-11 (1999) that I indicated as the latest that would work? I think you were sent a bushing newer than that.

My triple lock bushing and all models that I own and measured are up to 1985. They all measure .260" + or -. Bushings newer than 1999 measure .230" + or -. What does the bushing you received measure?

In hindsight I should have suggested measuring your hole diameter for it in your gun and then getting a confirmation of the bushing diameter when you ordered it. But now you know the size you need.

Bushings all come a bit long so they can be inserted and then finished flush to the recoil shield.
 
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Hondo said that rims need to be thinned from the "top". That is not a good description. What needs to be done is to thin them from the front of the rim so that the depth of the primer pocket is not decreased.
I have converted .45 Schofield brass to .455 by trimming in a Lyman drill press trimmer to length, then turning the rims to the right thickness on my lathe. I made a mandrel of scrap steel that fit snugly in the case, and held the case on the mandrel with a live tail stock center. I ground a standard tool bit to do the cutting, found a piece of scrap flat stock the thickness of the rim, and another piece a bit longer than the spacer. I made a sandwich of the tool bit, the spacer and the extra piece, with the extra piece sticking out maybe 3/16" past the end of the spacer. In use, I would slip a case over the mandrel, advance the center to hold it in place, then bring the carriage forward until the overhang of the extra piece was lightly against the base of the case, then feed the cutting tool in to the proper depth. On the first case, I fed in by sight, then set the gauge ring on the feed screw to zero so that subsequent cuts could all be made to the same depth. Once set up, it took less than 30 seconds per case. A machine shop near me that sometimes does work that is beyond the capabilities of me or my equipment charges $25 an hour, so they could have done a hundred cases very reasonably.
 
skeeter (et al),

i just noticed something and forgive me for not mentioning sooner, but thank you for your service.
you hit on something here: since you have the expertise and experience in making these cases, how about i send you a handful or two .45 colts and you miraculously transform them into webleys? i will gladly pay you for your time and effort (tuesday)--no seriously.
regarding the hammer nose bushing, i contacted a machinist friend who says he can make one but needs the dimensions. as y'all know, quarters are cramped inside the cylinder walls and calipers just won't cut it, so i made a mock up from a screw. got the thickness and width down well to give a snug fit seated flush. close enough for government work, eh?
 
That should do it!

The bushing is crimped in place at the factory with a special circle tool. If staked by hand with a punch it looks extremely tacky. I suggest that you NOT have the gunsmith stake it! We he turns the diameter on the lathe, have him turn the front end of the bushing diameter .001" oversize for a slight "interference fit".

Then press into place with a brass rod down the barrel, and finish flush once seated. The bushing doesn't come out in my experience, partly from being pressed in, and partly from every shot that's fired only continues to drive it tight.
 
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hondo,

yeah, 0.001" oversize was my thought as well. frankly, if it were harder steel, i probably would have finished drilling and ramping it, then drive it home.
i didn't think they came out very often either.

hey jeb, got it!. thank you brother. check yours, okay.
 
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