Troubles with new 386 XL Hunter.

[Lützow]

Hello all. This is my first post. I am a life long shooter, mostly rifles, but I have been shooting my Dan Wesson model 15 8" .357 revolver and .22 target pistols for 30 years. Mostly at small game and targets.

I recently decided to get a concealed carry permit. I wanted a new pistol that would be both potent and accurate, yet light and compact enough for concealed carry in a shoulder rig.

I settled on a S&W 386 XL Hunter in .357 with a 6" barrel. I liked the looks, light weight and balance of the gun. I also was pleasantly surprised at how manageable it was to shoot, even with full powered .357 loads.

I am not so happy with the way it shoots. Five shot offhand groups at 10 yards have run from 1.75" - 4" ctc. Five round groups off sandbags at 25 yards are more like 2.5" to 5". Even worse it wants to shoot all loads (I have tried 4, .38 spec +p to 158gr personal defence .357 loads) way low and to the left of POA. I had to set the rear sight as high as it would go and nearly all the way to the rite to zero it for POA at 10 yards where I would like to be able to use a 6 o'clock hold.

I thought I might just be rusty in my old age, but I shot it back to back with my old Dan Wesson and had no problem putting five rounds inside of a 1" target dot at 10 yards with the revolver that I paid $200 for 30 years ago!

I took it to my local gun smith, as well as the gun shop I purchased it from, and all agreed that something was not quite rite with the new 386, so, it is on it's way back to S&W to get sorted out.

I was hoping some of you here could help me with these questions:

1. Are my expectations reasonable? Do you think an alloy framed revolver should shoot ~ 1" groups offhand at 10 yards and 1.5 - 3" groups off a rest at 25 yards?

2. Why would it shoot so far from POA? Could the frame be out of alignment?

3. What can I expect from S&W? What will they do with it and how long will I have to wait?

4. I had a wolf spring kit installed and the action honed, but SA pull is still 5-5.5 pounds and DA is >9. Are all the new S&W actions so stiff?

Thanks for any help!

 

[rburg]

Let me address the last, the trigger pull problem. The DA at least seems to be high on all the guns. If/when you install a spring kit and lower the weight to the place where you want it, you seem to get unreliable ignition. It seems to be related to the frame mounted firing pin. For whatever reason, those seem to require a higher hammer fall than the good old hammer mounted pins. Keep in mind every change isn't necessarily an improvement. Some changes were done to please some salesman, politician (remember the agreement with the Klintons?) or whatever. The guns didn't improve, they just became easier or cheaper to make.

I've never even see a 386XL. My 386 isn't even a PD or Night Guard. Its just a garden variety 386, but I like it a lot. I did remove the infernal lock, and even installed springs that made it fire about half the time. So out they came and the originals with unGodly stiff pulls went back in.

If I saw a 386XL in the flesh, I'd probably buy it on the spot.

 

[Lützow]

Thanks Dick,

You seem to be yet another person who is telling me that "they don't make them like they used to". I had heard this before, and was tempted to buy a mint older S&W revolver, but was seduced by the looks and features of the new gun.

Is that 'infernal lock' a result of the devil's pact made with the Clinton administration? Does it make the action stiffer? Can it simply be removed?

So how does your 386 shoot and how is it holding up?

If you would buy a 386 XL Hunter on sight I might have to show you mine! LOL! Of course depending on how good a job S&W does at sorting it out!

 

[remat457]

My 386sc DA pull is not as good as my 686+ despite being the same frame, and both IL 7-shots. Have no idea why...

 

[DonD]

I'm sure S&W will make the gun right for you.

Re the ILS, it has nothing to do with trigger pull and can be easily removed. Don

 

[shawn mccarver]

Let me address the last, the trigger pull problem. The DA at least seems to be high on all the guns. If/when you install a spring kit and lower the weight to the place where you want it, you seem to get unreliable ignition. It seems to be related to the frame mounted firing pin. For whatever reason, those seem to require a higher hammer fall than the good old hammer mounted pins. Keep in mind every change isn't necessarily an improvement. Some changes were done to please some salesman, politician (remember the agreement with the Klintons?) or whatever. The guns didn't improve, they just became easier or cheaper to make.

I've never even see a 386XL. My 386 isn't even a PD or Night Guard. Its just a garden variety 386, but I like it a lot. I did remove the infernal lock, and even installed springs that made it fire about half the time. So out they came and the originals with unGodly stiff pulls went back in.

If I saw a 386XL in the flesh, I'd probably buy it on the spot.

I agree with Mr. Burg. The frame mounted firing pins are an endless source of reliability issues if the postings we see here are to be believed. While your revolver is back at S&W, ask the performance center to look at it and ask a PC gunsmith if they can put in the PC firing pin, which I think is either longer, or has a longer travel cut in the body of the firing pin. In any event, it makes a big difference. I would stay away from the aftermarket firing pins were I you. Also, stay away from aftermarket springs.

 

[scooter123]

First up, lets clear up some of the mud being slung concerning the frame mounted firing pins. That is that this system allows the use of AFTERMARKET firing pins that have been designed to permit the use of lightened mainsprings without any loss in reliability of ignition. I have used the Cylinder & Slide firing pin in my 610-3, 620, and 625 JM and all 3 revolvers have proven 100% reliable with the DA triggers set to 8 lbs. If I wanted to limit my shooting to only using Federal primers I could probably eak the DA trigger pull down to 7 lbs. or even less, however I prefer to be able to use any ammo I can find and an 8 lbs. DA trigger isn't at all difficult to shoot well with.

BTW, that 5 to 5.5 SA trigger pull you are reporting is NOT typical for a new S&W revolver of recent manufacture. Normally the SA triggers on the new guns run quite close to 4.5 lbs. out of the box and usually smooth out to 4 lbs. even within 200 rounds of single action shooting. Quite simply, that trigger pull you've reported either isn't accurate or whoever "honed" your action didn't have any idea of what they were doing. Normally all that is needed to tune the single action trigger to a 3 lbs. break on a S&W of recent manufacture is to install a 14 lbs. rebound spring.

Now lets take a look at your accuracy issues.

First up, the 386 series feature a tensioned barrel that in terms of Engineering Dynamics is very similar to the barrel mounting in your Dan Wesson revolvers. As such, the barrel shroud is keyed to the frame and the barrel tube is under tension and supported at both frame and muzzle. With a cold barrel I would expect that you should be able to see accuracy in the 1 inch or less range at 50 yards. However, because of the disimilar materials used in the barrel tube and shroud I would expect this system to be a bit more temperature sensitive that it would be with an all steel revolver. How sensitive to temperature I have no idea, to determine that you'll have to do some testing.

Second issue is the length of the barrel. IIRC the Light Hunter featured either a 6 or 7 inch barrel. In addition you have a revolver with a light weight Scandium frame. When you combine these two factors you'll find that you have a package that is distinctly sensitive to Recoil Management. Meaning, any variation in how you control the recoil for each shot will result in shots being "thrown". You might not believe this right now but if you spend 2 or 3 years working seriously with this gun to develop the recoil management skills it will require you'll come away a believer and a much better handgun shooter. What I am telling you is that you've chosen a gun that presents a real challenge to shoot well with. I'll also point out that it's also light enough to be a very real flinch builder if your shooting it with heavy Magnum loads.

Now, I expect that you won't want to hear this, or even except that it's likely true. However, shooting low and left is nearly a universal result for new shooters who are right handed and combining a trigger jerk and a push flinch. Unless your left handed, odds are nearly 95% that you POI/POA mismatch is due to your shooting skills or lack thereof.

 

[Lützow]

Hey Scooter,

Some of your advice is not what I was hoping to hear, but thanks for the feedback! Honestly. You do come across as a little defensive about S&W revolvers, understandable as this is a S&W enthusiasts forum!

Without getting all defensive about my own shooting skills (or lack thereof!) what you seem to be saying is that I have a revolver that likely possesses excellent inherent mechanical accuracy (I would be super impressed to see any handgun shoot a 1" group at 50 yds!) but, at the same time may have it's inherent accuracy compromised - rendered problematical by it's design - in terms of the steel barrel heating and cooling at a different rate then the scandium alloy shroud and frame, as well as it's light weight and heavy trigger pull requiring expert level skills to maintain consistent shot to shot trigger control and recoil management.

All this leaves me wondering whether these light weight alloy guns are a flawed concept, in the sense that they are intended to be carried a lot and shot little, but if you have to spend a lot of extra time shooting them (you prescribe 2-3 years of practice!) to gain a level of mastery that will allow one to hit something - well what's the point? It might make more sense to just get an all steel 686 or Python and devote my time to finding a shoulder rig that will be comfortable with the extra weight.

Also, a couple factors in my shooting experience with this gun still seem to contradict your theory that it is merely a lack of shooter skills issue. I also shot CCI Blazer .38 special 125gr hp loads in the gun. I found this load to be a complete cream puff to shoot, almost like shooting a .22, yet the groups were even worse then with the full house .357 loads and just as low and to the left of POA. Like wise with my attempts shooting from a bench off sandbags - smaller groups then off hand but just as low and to the left.

 

[K1500]

Have a couple of other experienced shooters shoot it. If it hits to POA and groups well, you know it is you. If it is still off, you have more evidence to blame the gun.

 

[scooter123]

Personally, I am NOT a fan of light weight revolvers and when it's done in a Hunting specific model I consider it a poor design choice. Simple fact is that when you combine light weight with a longer barrel in a handgun you will create a package that is much more sensitive to Recoil Management than a heavier gun would be. End result is that you have a package that has a much higher level of training to master than would be true of a heavier all steel handgun. However, light is currently "IN" so you really can't blame S&W for satisfying a need that I feel is a bit foolish.

BTW, I'm basing what I've stated here on my experience with my 610-3, which has a 6 1/2 inch barrel. Like you I found the accuracy with my 610 to be a bit disappointing when I first got it and the 610 is all steel. However, I did keep having periods when it would shoot superbly for 2 or 3 cylinders. It took me a while to pick up on it but my accuracy issues were a combination of fatique and less than optimal recoil management skills. Quite simply, the 610 was just fine, it was the person doing the shooting who needed some work. It's taken a bit more that 2 years of practice but I'm now getting to the point where I'm nearly satisfied with my results. Yeah, I would like to get another 1/2 to 3/4 inch out of my groups but 3 inches at 35 yards from a rest is good enough.

Point is, as I discovered with my 610, long barrels can "test" a shooter in unexpected ways. When something like this happens we can take a couple of different approaches. One is to dig our heels in and say "I can learn to do this". The other is to say "that was a dumb choice" and just sell the gun.

 

[MShambarger]

386 XL Hunter Shoots Low & to the Left

I too bought a 386 XL about two weeks ago on a Sunday at a gun show in Crossville, TN. I took it to the range that day and it shot about 10 inches low 3" to the left at 11 yds. I got the range office, a very fine pistol shot, to shoot it and he had the same results. He said there is something wrong with this gun. I contacted S&W and they sent me a paid return slip and it went back to them on the following Friday. It will be a month or so, they say, before I get it back. I hope I didn't waste a lot of money on an expensive gun. By the way, I have a Model 41, Model 14 and just bought my wife a 632 so this is my 4th S&W handgun.

 

[fisco]

386

I have a 386XL and a 386 sc/s. I'm a lefty and was shooting low and to the right with all my revolvers. A very good firearm instructor fixed the problem in two minutes. A right handed shooter will shoot to 7 or 8 o'clock and a lefty to 4 or 5 o'clock. It has to do with the way you grip the gun. As you hold the gun and take a sight picture, then you take a firmer grip to pull the trigger. The firmer grip moves the pistol down and to the left for a right handed and down and to the right for a left handed shooter. Try it with an unloaded gun and watch the front sight move as you grip the gun and pull the trigger. It's a very small move, but that's all it take to throw off your shot. The fix, your support hand is pulling back and lightly pushing in to the shooting hand. The shooting hand is pushing forward at the same time. The problem is more pronounced shooting DAO. I don't know if this will help you, but my shooting is so much better. I can now hit a running squirrel at 20 to 25 yds with my 5" 63. My grandkids were impressed. Ok, I get lucky now and again.


Gary

 

[turbo38gn]

I'm resurrecting this thread... but not sure why other than my favorite LGS finally got the 386XL he told me about 2 months ago. He asked me if I was interested back then cause he had a line on one, NIB old stock.. I thought the number sounded familiar, had to think about it for a while before I remembered I had a 386NG... Instantly wanted it... so I went home, did my web search and been waiting since.. stopped in this morning and without a word to me Mike opens the closet and out comes a new blue gun box with 386 written on it.. what the heck I think, open the box and there she is... brandy new, 386 XL Hunter.... and I have to say... NO TURN LINE on the cylinder, I have never seen any revolver with a zero turn line.. so I fondle it for a while, he is finishing up a sale.. then I ask him... how much... I had what I thought I wanted to pay... he was a little more than what I remember my research led me to believe.... but after a while, I decided he is too good to me... and makes it up with great deals all the time.. So I tell him, put my name on it and put it in the closet.. I'll need to sell a few guns, maybe another one of my 66's.. I'm thinking the US Border Patrol one has to go..

Ok, so now that I told my story.... time for the technical part... I see the 2 complainers never came back with updates, so I question the accuracy of their complaints.. My thinking is I want to shoot this gun to see for myself, but not sure I should shoot it since it obviously only looks to have been shot at the factory. But lets face it... this gun is not a target gun, it's a light Hunting gun!! Hence, I believe the name S&W gave it.... why would someone buy this gun and expect to use it for anything else and get results it was not designed for.. It's like buying a shotgun and trying to target shoot it out to 300yds... I think..

Anyone out here own this gun and want to share their experience? I have to say also, what an impressive gun to hold, point and I hope to shoot.. if I do..

 

[turbo38gn]

here's a picture of it, in case you haven't seen one... I copied this one from GB. I may have just the grip for it tooo, if I want to doll it up a little.

 

[vonn]

I read this post and until you said you resurrected it didn't realize it was old . I like the concept of the gun I hope you will keep us posted on your findings. I would have to try it out !

 

[sw282]

That 386 looks great--but l kinda like a bit of heft ..So l have a new 686 Competitor coming to me..53 ounces is gonna put her in the ''Fat Lady'' class...l do like those skinny girl 386es now and then...But Fat Ladies need LOVE too

 

[sw282]

That 386 looks great--but l kinda like a bit of heft ..So l have a new 686 Competitor coming to me..53 ounces is gonna put her in the ''Fat Lady'' class...l do like those skinny girl 386s now and then...Like the old saying goes.. Fat Ladies need LOVE too

 

[Bobby in Texas]

386 XL Hunter problem

I bought my 386 a couple of years ago and had similar problems getting it sighted in. Once I managed to get zero'd, everything seemed fine until I took a very close look at the frame and discovered a crack was developing between the cylinder and the hammer on the right hand side of the gun. I believe that it is now unsafe to shoot and caution other owners of this gun to closely inpect their guns as well. I'm very fond of my 386 but I don't feel it is safe any longer. I believe I will most likely look at the model 686 instead in hopes that it's stronger frame material will not be susceptable to this type of stress fracture. Good luck and happy shooting

 

[turbo38gn]

I bought my 386 a couple of years ago and had similar problems getting it sighted in. Once I managed to get zero'd, everything seemed fine until I took a very close look at the frame and discovered a crack was developing between the cylinder and the hammer on the right hand side of the gun. I believe that it is now unsafe to shoot and caution other owners of this gun to closely inpect their guns as well. I'm very fond of my 386 but I don't feel it is safe any longer. I believe I will most likely look at the model 686 instead in hopes that it's stronger frame material will not be susceptable to this type of stress fracture. Good luck and happy shooting

Bobby, could you please post a couple pictures of the damage? Also, have you called S&W, I'm sure they will warrantee it..