Two 1905's

[SasquatchPA]

I picked up these two 5 screw hand ejectors not long ago and thought I would share a picture of them. These are my first pre Model 10's I have owned. From what research I have done I think I have them dated and identified fairly closely.

The first one is a S&W Model 1905 K Frame Hand Ejector 1st Change, 38 Special S/N 114,XXX 6.5" barrel, blued, smooth trigger, squared back, wood stock, no lanyard ring, circa 1907?

Do the grips on the square frame look original?

The second one is a S&W Model 1905 K Frame Hand Ejector 4th Change, 38 Special, S/N 624,XXX with a 6" barrel, nickel plated, serrated trigger, rounded back, pearl stock, no lanyard ring, circa 1934?

Did S&W use pearl handles from the factory?

Thanks for any help that you can provide.

 

[JP@AK]

38 Special S/N 114,XXX

Do the grips on the square frame look original?

No. That serial number points to a period before medallions were used. Those stocks are from the 1930s.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the cotton and peanut covered plains of the Wiregrass! I think your square butt M&P date is close. The grips are from the 1930's and should have a serial number stamped on the back of the right grip panel. Your round butt M&P is a little more problematic. Guns with serials near yours were shipping around 1940 and yours may have also shipped then. However, it was made earlier in the 1930's. The small trademark stamp on the left side was used up through 1937 after which it moved to the sideplate. The grips are not factory as S&W put medallions in their pearl grips...when they were making them. From what I have read here and IIRC, they stopped making them in the late 19-teens due to lack of suitable oyster shells. Nevertheless, those pearls look great and complement that M&P.

 

[DWalt]

Your nickel plated round butt revolver was called a Military and Police Model, round butt. Round butt M&Ps from that period are not too common, most had square butts. Grips would not be factory. It is from the mid-late 30s but could have shipped later. Around 1937, the S&W logo stamp returned to the side plate and stayed there. Your earlier revolver is correctly called a Model of 1905. S&W stopped using that terminology around 1915. As others have said, the wood grips on it are of the 1930s style.

 

[SasquatchPA]

Thanks you all for you help. I really appreciate it.

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

Thanks for sharing and welcome.

 

[glowe]

Welcome. There might be some confusion here with regards to the serial number you listed. Just to age these revolvers correctly, I see a 114,XXX square butt blue revolver. That serial number makes the gun either a Model 1905, 1st Change, or Model 1905, 2nd Change depending on some small features. Your gun was likely built between 1906 and 1909. Similar serial numbers shipped around 1907-1908. As noted, the stocks are much later than the gun. I have posted a picture below of the proper style stocks for the period from 1900 to 1910. Guns of this era had mushroom shaped ejector rod knobs up to 1927.

You noted the serial number of the nickel round-butt as 624,XXX, which would have shipped around 1934. It would best be called a 38 Military & Police, 4th Change. One quick dating technique for K frame revolvers is to look at the ejector rod knob. The barrel shaped knob is post 1927. Stocks almost certainly were a distributor set or put on by a previous owner post-factory. As noted, the 1930 through WWII guns all had silver medallions in the top round of walnut stocks or more likely, black hard rubber stocks.

 

[SasquatchPA]

How can one tell if it is a 1st change or 2nd change? Is there a good book that is out there that describes all of the changes?

 

[glowe]

How can one tell if it is a 1st change or 2nd change? Is there a good book that is out there that describes all of the changes?

Roy Jinks and Robert Neal wrote Smith & Wesson 1857 to 1945 and goes into great detail to identify the elements of model and change differences. With regards to the difference between 1st and 2nd Change 38 M&Ps, here is what the book states:

• keyslot for the rebound slot was removed
• rib was added ti the bottom of the hammer
• extractor guide system was changed from circular end cuts on the end of the extractor star to a much larger diameter cut
• small dowels now aligned the star in the cylinder
• patent date of Feb 6, 1906 stamped on the rebound slide
• late 2nd Change revolvers no longer had steel shims in the cylinder stop notches

All these changes did not take place on a specific date and guns already finished in inventory were not refitted. The company would not have scrapped any 1st Change parts until mostly used up, so there was always a transition period from one change to another. Interesting note is that Roy and Robert also printed the barrel patent dates and the two changes as below:

1st Change - Apr 9 1889, Mar 27 1894, May 21 1895, July 16 1895, Aug 4 1896, Dec 22 1896, Oct 4 1898, Oct 8, 1901, Dec 17 1901, Feb 6 1906

2nd Change - Mar 22 1894, May 21 1895, Aug 4 1896, Dec 22 1896, Oct 8 1901, Dec 17 1901, Feb 6, 1906

 

[SasquatchPA]

Roy Jinks and Robert Neal wrote Smith & Wesson 1857 to 1945 and goes into great detail to identify the elements of model and change differences. With regards to the difference between 1st and 2nd Change 38 M&Ps, here is what the book states:

• keyslot for the rebound slot was removed
• rib was added ti the bottom of the hammer
• extractor guide system was changed from circular end cuts on the end of the extractor star to a much larger diameter cut
• small dowels now aligned the star in the cylinder
• patent date of Feb 6, 1906 stamped on the rebound slide
• late 2nd Change revolvers no longer had steel shims in the cylinder stop notches

All these changes did not take place on a specific date and guns already finished in inventory were not refitted. The company would not have scrapped any 1st Change parts until mostly used up, so there was always a transition period from one change to another. Interesting note is that Roy and Robert also printed the barrel patent dates and the two changes as below:

1st Change - Apr 9 1889, Mar 27 1894, May 21 1895, July 16 1895, Aug 4 1896, Dec 22 1896, Oct 4 1898, Oct 8, 1901, Dec 17 1901, Feb 6 1906

2nd Change - Mar 22 1894, May 21 1895, Aug 4 1896, Dec 22 1896, Oct 8 1901, Dec 17 1901, Feb 6, 1906

Thank you. Sorry for the delayed response I was out of town.

 

[rct269]

This may be old news to some, but lest there be any confusion; all this change business (1st/2nd/3rd/etc.) is collector speak for the various changes they themselves noted. Aside from the fact the factory made the changes, they didn't label them one way or another, and as far as I know, with few exceptions, didn't even bother to publicize them---other than in engineering records.

All things considered, I suspect all this change labeling business came to be as an excuse to buy more guns. I mean, if there are X number of changes within any given model line, then I have to have examples of all of them---right?! Never mind I doubt there's any living soul who can describe them or point them out on a gun without looking in the book! RIGHT?!!

RIGHT!!! It is the way of the lunatic fringe!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[4K2022]

This may be old news to some, but lest there be any confusion; all this change business (1st/2nd/3rd/etc.) is collector speak ,,,,,

All things considered, I suspect all this change labeling business came to be as an excuse to buy more guns. ,,,,,,

Ralph Tremaine

That's exactly what happened to me! After I saw one of you juvenile delinquents post a set of model 10s with Dash numbers from 1 through 10.

Nice pair of 05s Gotta love those pearls

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

"These are my first pre Model 10's I have owned."

Most of us here on the Forum consider pre Model 10s to be those revolvers with the short action introduced after WW II, but aren't model marked.

You found yourself a pair of nice revolvers.