Two New S&Ws with Bad Timing - Should Perfect Timing Be Expected?

[HarrishMasher]

I bought two 386 Night Guards over the last two months. One was New In The Box and manufactured in 2012. The other was Like New In The Box and manufactured in 2008. This one might have had 2 cylinder put through it at most.

Both are incredible guns. However, on the NIB first one made in 2012 the timing was clearly off on two chambers. In both SA and DA slow dry firing, 2 cylinders always failed to lock up.I sent it back to S&W for repair two weeks ago and still waiting for word on it.

Much to my surprise, the second one I picked up last week has a timing issue as well. However, it doesn't happen every time. There is one chamber that every few very slow SA and DA cycles does not fully lock up. If I dry fire it rapidly DA there doesn't seem to be a problem. But slowly cycling it in DA and SA I can get it to happen.

This is an issue because when I am at the range and shooting for accuracy in DA I slowly stack the trigger. I noticed yesterday after I fired it on that one suspect chamber it did not lock up after firing. I was free to rotate the cylinder right back. Only happened once in 70 rounds, but it did happen.

Is this acceptable in any way? I would think not.

I should note that if I pull the hammer back firmly and swiftly, it locks up perfectly on every chamber every time.

Is this an issue with cylinders that have more than 6 rounds? I own three revolvers that are 7 shot, these two 386NGs, and a 686PC 2.5" and two of the three have timing issues.

I currently own 9 S&W revolvers. The timing is perfect on all of them except these two Night Guards. Even my old 65 Lady Smith, that was being used as a rental at a local shooting range before I rescued it, has perfect timing.

What do you guys think, does this Night Guard have to go back to S&W too? Can timing improve as a new revolver gets broken in? I would think it would only get worse.

 

[jrandyh]

Bought one of the 686 2.5 Performance center guns recently. It does it about every other turn of the cylinder. I shoot liked you.haven't fired it yet as I see other issues and will Likely send it back.
JR

 

[HarrishMasher]

Bought one of the 686 2.5 Performance center guns recently. It does it about every other turn of the cylinder. I shoot liked you.haven't fired it yet as I see other issues and will Likely send it back.
JR

My 686PC 2.5" that I picked up 6 weeks ago is perfect in every respect. I have fired 300 rounds without issue. Timing is perfect in both SA and DA. Sweet gun. Sorry you are having problems.

 

[TucsonMTB]

I would make sure the revolver is clean and properly lubricated. If it still does not lock up consistently with no extra drag on the cylinder, it needs professional attention.

When staging the trigger on my favorite 642-1 it locks up a fraction of an inch before the end of the trigger stroke. A retired LEO, who is the lead range master at our local Pima Pistol Club range, clued me into using that final click of the lock dropping to the slot as a way to get near single action accuracy out of a double action only revolver.

He tells me that technique allowed him to improve his qualification scores nicely. In my somewhat inexperienced opinion, I believe all revolvers should work that way.

I'm sure that an experienced S&W smith will agree when you ask them to work on it.

 

[Hapworth]

You'll get different opinions on this. Some feel that so long as you're getting proper lock up firing at normal speeds, the piece is "enough" in time.

I disagree -- the cylinder stop should drop into its notch ahead of hammer lock on every charge hole, every time, in double and single action whether using my left or right hand no matter what angle the revolver's held at (all of these things can produce slightly different timing results).

Failure to carry up is not a problem that gets better. If it's minimal, its affect can be negligible, especially for normal shooting; more pronounced can affect accuracy and, eventually, safety.

I think it should be corrected.

 

[Hapworth]

...A retired LEO, who is the lead range master at our local Pima Pistol Club range, clued me into using that final click of the lock dropping to the slot as a way to get near single action accuracy out of a double action only revolver.

He tells me that technique allowed him to improve his qualification scores nicely...

Staging the trigger, as it's called, can definitely bring one's quals up, but risks putting one in the habit of staging, and is a risky method in a self-defense situation: too much time and too many fine motor skills required under circumstances that don't lend to either -- becomes an easy way to send lead when and where you don't mean to.

If armed self-defense isn't a consideration, stage away; but if it is, probably best to focus on smooth, deliberate double action pulls.

 

[Watchdog]

"Two New S&Ws with Bad Timing - Should Perfect Timing Be Expected?"

My answer is: Yes.

And this doesn't apply to only timing. If I buy a gun NIB it is expected to work as it should. If it doesn't, it goes back to the LGS for an exchange or a refund...I don't fool around waiting weeks or months for the factory (any factory) to fix it.

 

[HarrishMasher]

"Two New S&Ws with Bad Timing - Should Perfect Timing Be Expected?"

My answer is: Yes.

And this doesn't apply to only timing. If I buy a gun NIB it is expected to work as it should. If it doesn't, it goes back to the LGS for an exchange or a refund...I don't fool around waiting weeks or months for the factory (any factory) to fix it.

These we As New In The Box "used" guns bought from individuals on Gunbroker. So not an option here. Otherwise I agree with you.

 

[HarrishMasher]

You'll get different opinions on this. Some feel that so long as you're getting proper lock up firing at normal speeds, the piece is "enough" in time.

I disagree -- the cylinder stop should drop into its notch ahead of hammer lock on every charge hole, every time, in double and single action whether using my left or right hand no matter what angle the revolver's held at (all of these things can produce slightly different timing results).

Failure to carry up is not a problem that gets better. If it's minimal, its affect can be negligible, especially for normal shooting; more pronounced can affect accuracy and, eventually, safety.

I think it should be corrected.

Hap,
When I pull the hammer back swiftly and firmly it locks up perfectly every time on every chamber. Same with DA swift and firm pulls. It is only when I stage in DA and pull the hammer back slowly in SA do I get one of the chambers not locking up sometimes.

So I guess it is a question of how to properly check for timing? Since the timing is fine when the trigger/hammer is used as intended, should I be concerned?

 

[Hapworth]

Hap,
When I pull the hammer back swiftly and firmly it locks up perfectly every time on every chamber. Same with DA swift and firm pulls. It is only when I stage in DA and pull the hammer back slowly in SA do I get one of the chambers not locking up sometimes.

So I guess it is a question of how to properly check for timing? Since the timing is fine when the trigger/hammer is used as intended, should I be concerned?

Traditional proper check for carry up is at slow speed, double and single action, at multiple angles. In swift DA or SA, a revolver with bad carry up will still time due to inertia, which is why some will argue it's no big deal. I think a revolver should carry up properly no matter the speed at which it's made to.

 

[kaaskop49]

Please listen to Hapworth. He really knows revolvers. And don't worry about not being able to send it to the S&W factory. Find a competent revolversmith and have him check the timing on the used gun, if not both.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[jrandyh]

My 686PC 2.5" that I picked up 6 weeks ago is perfect in every respect. I have fired 300 rounds without issue. Timing is perfect in both SA and DA. Sweet gun. Sorry you are having problems.

Sad. Even the front of the ejector rod is all buggered up. I was first one at shop who handled it too.
JR.

 

[jrandyh]

Staging the trigger, as it's called, can definitely bring one's quals up, but risks putting one in the habit of staging, and is a risky method in a self-defense situation: too much time and too many fine motor skills required under circumstances that don't lend to either -- becomes an easy way to send lead when and where you don't mean to.

If armed self-defense isn't a consideration, stage away; but if it is, probably best to focus on smooth, deliberate double action pulls.

I shoot from the hip at 7 yards in one fluid motion. I only stage my triggers at 25 and 50 yards which I had to shoot to qualify as a LE instructor.
JR

 

[rwsmith]

I'd accept an ugly gun....

I'd accept an ugly gun before I accepted one where the mechanics weren't sound.

 

[HarrishMasher]

Please listen to Hapworth. He really knows revolvers. And don't worry about not being able to send it to the S&W factory. Find a competent revolversmith and have him check the timing on the used gun, if not both.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

No problem sending them back to S&W. They picked up the first one two weeks ago. I'm sure they will pick this one up as well.

 

[SAWBONES]

Should Perfect Timing Be Expected?

In a revolver? Absolutely.

Otherwise, get a semiautomatic pistol, fer cryin' out loud.

A revolver whose cylinder isn't correctly timed is inaccurate, and may even sometimes be non-functional.

Good quality control is too often a thing of the past, unfortunately.

 

[stantheman86]

May be a dumb question but are there empty cases in the chambers when you check the timing?

 

[jaymoore]

May be a dumb question but are there empty cases in the chambers when you check the timing?

Not dumb at all. I've found the seven shooters particularly benefit. Can't hurt- costs nothing to try it and see if it helps.

 

[HarrishMasher]

May be a dumb question but are there empty cases in the chambers when you check the timing?

I have checked the timing with and without empty cases. Same result.

 

[Krogen]

Somebody said be sure it's clean. Then with no drag on the cylinder, see if it locks up. Nope - you want to do quite the opposite. You actually want a little drag on the cylinder. Pull the trigger slowly while using your weak hand thumb to apply a very slight amount of drag to the cylinder.

Going slowly prevents inertia from locking the cylinder prematurely and the drag from your thumb takes out the slop in the works. If it doesn't lock up on all notches, send 'er back to S&W!