Two Old Timers

[packard8]

Hi Folks I have two of my great-grandpa's top break revolvers.

I'm told they were issued to him as he was a conductor on the rail line from Wichita, KS to Pratt, KS for many years in the early 1900s.
The 6-shot hammerless one has "S&W 32 CTGE" on the barrel, the one with the hammer is a 5-shot and has no barrel markings, and is larger than 9mm bore in the cylinder. It does have "F&W" and a shield on the grips, but no other ID that I can find.

Any help in identifying them is appreciated. Prolly just paperweights, but they do have some family history.

TIA, John

 

[larkworthy]

One appears to be an Iver Johnson top break and the other may be a Harrington & Richardson (H&R) safety hammerless. Both appear to be in 38 S&W caliber. Neither is worth much as stand alone revolvers, but they are significant pieces of your family history. My suggestion is to type a letter explaining the history of your great grandfather as you have been told and then include a brief description of these two revolvers with their serial numbers (and any other items that came with them). Sign and date the letter then take a picture of the items described next to the letter.

This will provide a chain of custody and history for the next generation of your family. Most people do not have this type of legacy to pass on within the family. If you don't have anyone to pass it down to then let your other family members know and I am sure someone will have an interest. Again, the monetary value is low - maybe $300-400 total, but family history is hard to put a value on it.

Regards, Lyle

 

[larkworthy]

Below are two revolvers that are on auction for under $200 that appear to match yours

Harrington & Richardson (H&R) safety hammerless




Iver Johnson Top Break. Yours has an older style grip pattern, but I believe it is Iver Johnson. If you can post more pictures of the top break including any stamps on it we can help narrow it down.

 

[Blue dog]

This one is a Forehand Arms Co. looks like a 32 Long 6 shot. These are worth a bit more than $200. Especially blued. Depends upon condition, action, markings. Should have Forehand Arms Co on top of the barrel and an 1887 patent date.


The H&R has Target grips. Those are worth some money but condition is everything. They look damaged on the back side. Too bad. They look like early target grips too! Those are scarce.

 

[packard8]

Thanks Blue Dog. I found one that appears identical here:

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/forehand-wadsworth-five-shot-revolver/457164

My pistol is .38 (short?), as a .38 Spl fits the cylinder diameter, but is too long for the gun to close.
Still digging up research on the hammerless.

 

[packard8]

Below are two revolvers that are on auction for under $200 that appear to match yours

Harrington & Richardson (H&R) safety hammerless
View attachment 881764View attachment 881765



Iver Johnson Top Break. Yours has an older style grip pattern, but I believe it is Iver Johnson. If you can post more pictures of the top break including any stamps on it we can help narrow it down.

View attachment 881770View attachment 881767View attachment 881768

Thanks Lark, I was able to ID the 5-shot .38 (see above) as an "F&W Pocket Revolver."
Still working on the hammerless .32.

 

[larkworthy]

View attachment 881893
This one is a Forehand Arms Co. looks like a 32 Long 6 shot. These are worth a bit more than $200. Especially blued. Depends upon condition, action, markings. Should have Forehand Arms Co on top of the barrel and an 1887 patent date.

View attachment 881894
The H&R has Target grips. Those are worth some money but condition is everything. They look damaged on the back side. Too bad. They look like early target grips too! Those are scarce.

Good catch. I forgot about that brand.

 

[nutsforsmiths]

The Forehand and Wadsworth (F&W on the grips) was out of business before WWI. I think they were purchased by Hopkins and Allen around 1905 and continued to make them for a couple years.

The Harrington and Richardaon hammerless might from around the same time period. And those are target grips on that pistol. The number of patent dates on the top of the barrel of the H&R should give you a good idea as to when it was made. The fewer the patents, the earlier it was made.

 

[packard8]

The Forehand and Wadsworth (F&W on the grips) was out of business before WWI. I think they were purchased by Hopkins and Allen around 1905 and continued to make them for a couple years.

The Harrington and Richardaon hammerless might from around the same time period. And those are target grips on that pistol. The number of patent dates on the top of the barrel of the H&R should give you a good idea as to when it was made. The fewer the patents, the earlier it was made.

Thanks, but the only thing on the barrel is ".32 S&W CTGE." (On the left side). I haven't yet taken the stocks off to see if an S/N appears there.

 

[nutsforsmiths]

Interesting. The pistol with the H&R target grips might be a Spanish copy pistol that had the H&R target grips put on at some point. Looking at the H&R book by Bill Goforth, it seems the company never made a 6 shot 32. Their small frame hammerless top breaks in 32 were 5 shot. And their large frame hammerless top breaks were 5 shot seemed to all be in 38 S&W only.

H&R always had a company roll mark of some kind on the barrel top strap.

All this is just a guess on my part from the quick research I've done. And I'm no expert in European top break copies. Good luck on your continued search! And I hope I haven't muddied the waters!

 

[Walkin Horse]

I thought this was what the thread was about.

 

[packard8]

Interesting. The pistol with the H&R target grips might be a Spanish copy pistol that had the H&R target grips put on at some point. Looking at the H&R book by Bill Goforth, it seems the company never made a 6 shot 32. Their small frame hammerless top breaks in 32 were 5 shot. And their large frame hammerless top breaks were 5 shot seemed to all be in 38 S&W only.

H&R always had a company roll mark of some kind on the barrel top strap.

All this is just a guess on my part from rhe quick research I've done. And I'm no expert in European top break copies. Good luck on your continued search! And I hope I haven't muddied the waters!

Thanks for the info. I cleaned the top strap a bit, and it does read:

"Harington & Richardson Arms Co"
"Worchester Mass USA"

I don't find any patent dates.
Definitely a 6-shooter in .32 S&W caliber.
These will just be "Mantle Pieces", I have no intention of firing them in their present condition.

 

[nutsforsmiths]

Ahh, thanks for the info.

I read too quickly, and H&R did make a hammerless 6 shot in 32 S&W Long on their large frame yop break. My apologizes for the wrong information.

Checking Gorforth's H&R book, and reading your top strap markings, your pistol was made sometime between 1913-1915. Models before those dated contain some patents on the top strap. Models after that date range have the state of Massachusetts spelled out, instead of Mass.

I hope this helps!

 

[packard8]

Ahh, thanks for the info.

I read too quickly, and H&R did make a hammerless 6 shot in 32 S&W Long on their large frame yop break. My apologizes for the wrong information.

Checking Gorforth's H&R book, and reading your top strap markings, your pistol was made sometime between 1913-1915. Models before those dated contain some patents on the top strap. Models after that date range have the state of Massachusetts spelled out, instead of Mass.

I hope this helps!

That is helpful, thanks for taking the time to help!!