Type 38 Arisaka Trivia

[THE PILGRIM]

I have seen a few of these rifles but never thought much about them.
So my Son says his Buddy has a T 38 Rifle, it’s a 6.5 mm.
So I ask, is it a Japanese 6.5 x 50 mm Arisaka?
He checks, texts me yes.
When I refreashed myself on this piece, I was amazed at what I didn’t know.
Like - Do you remember the ditty about why the Fire Engine is Red?
The Finns fought the Russians?
Some of the Finns used Type 38s that they liberated from the Russians!
The Russians bought a bunch of Type 38s!
The Brits and Estonians bought them in 303 British.
The Thais bought a variant. But I knew that.
And there a number of other sales.
The Type 38 buy that floored me?
Mexico. They bought theirs in 7 x 57!

 

[mauser9]

Interesting indeed! Only thing I knew is the Type 38 was 6.5 and the Type 99 was 7.7.

 

[BB57]

The distribution of Arisaka rifles before, during and after WW1 was about as complex as the politics after WW1.

The Mexicans bought their Arisakas in 1911 chambered for 7x57 Mauser, but only took possession of part of the order due to a change in the Mexican government after the revolution. Apparently Japan didn't get paid for the rest of the order (35,000 rifles), so imperial Russia bought the rest of the order.

Imperial Russia also bought 600,000 of their own Type 30 Arisaka rifles and carbines from Japan during WW1 and armed second line units in Northwest Russia with them.

In 1914, Great Britain purchased 150,000 6.5x50 Arisaka Type 30 and 38 rifles and carbines from Japan. These were issued to the British Army as the: 'Rifle, Magazine, .256in Pattern 1900' (T30) and 'Rifle, Magazine, .256in Pattern 1907' (T38) and used until 1916. Note that these were not chambered for .303 British.

In 1916 128,000 of these T30 and T38 rifles were sold to Russia, bringing Russia's total received to around 763,000 Type 30 or 38 Arisakas.

However, Austria Hungary captured a large number of Arisaka rifles from Russia, mostly Type 30 rifles in 1915. These were issued to 2nd line units with captured ammunition. So much ammunition was captured that there was no need to convert the rifles to a more standard cartridge until late in WW1. When captured 6.5x50mm ammunition ran low, some of the captured Russian issue Type 30 and Type 38 Arisakas were chamber reamed to accept the 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge.

A number of the Russian Arisakas issued in the northwest regions of Russia found there way into Finland and Estonia after WWI. Finland shipped many of theirs to Estonia as war aid in 1919-20. Estonia may have also received the balance of the British Arisakas (about 22,000) directly from Britain.

Since Estonia was getting the bulk of it's military aid between the wars from Britain, it made sense to convert them to .303 British and about 25,000 of them were converted in the early 1930s.

Thailand bought 50,000 Arisaka rifles chambered in 8x52r as the Type 66 in 1924, although there are a lot of detail differences between the Type 66 and Type 38. A small number of these were cut down to short rifle dimensions and chambered in .30-06 in 1950.

Thailand also received standard Type 38s from Japan as military aid in 1940. Some of those Type 38s were cut down after WWII and converted to Type 91 police carbines.

The Chinese versions of the Type 38 were knock offs made in China and are not technically Arisaka rifles, but rather clones.

 

[Rudi]

I had a couple of them many years ago. Old ones, fine rifles, real tack drivers.

 

[LVSteve]

Quite a few Type 38 carbines were converted to 7.62x39 by the Chinese after WWII.

There is a story that somebody in the US (Hatcher or Ackley, IIRC) reamed a Type 38 to 30-06 and fired it. Apparently it was noted that the recoil was a vicious. After a few rounds the rifle was inspected and it was found that while the chamber was reamed to 30-06, the barrel had not been rebored and was still 6.5. Oops.

 

[tndrfttom]

The story about the rechambering of a Type 38 to 30-06 appeared in the The American Rifleman. In order to get the reamer to work the guy ground down the pilot on the reamer till it would go in the bore!

 

[Bacon]

There is also the Japanese Type I rifle. It is an Italian rifle made to look and handle like the Type 38 but has a Carcano action. The Imperial Japanese Navy ordered 60,000 of them in the late 1930's. This is because the Japanese Army controlled the arsenals and was taking almost everything they produced so the Navy had to go somewhere else.

I have one that was taken off a dead sniper on Okinawa by a Marine Raider. He gave it to me as he was getting older. My father, an Army Combat Engineer, told me how they bulldozed huge piles of Japanese rifles on Okinawa after the war was over. What a shame.

 

[LVSteve]

There is also the Japanese Type I rifle. It is an Italian rifle made to look and handle like the Type 38 but has a Carcano action. The Imperial Japanese Navy ordered 60,000 of them in the late 1930's. This is because the Japanese Army controlled the arsenals and was taking almost everything they produced so the Navy had to go somewhere else.

I have one that was taken off a dead sniper on Okinawa by a Marine Raider. He gave it to me as he was getting older. My father, an Army Combat Engineer, told me how they bulldozed huge piles of Japanese rifles on Okinawa after the war was over. What a shame.

The other story I've heard about the Type I is that the army found it to be more accurate than the Arisaka due to tighter tolerances, but was unacceptable as they did not bear the mark of the Emperor, the chrysanthemum. Many were found unissued in warehouses after the surrender.

 

[Bacon]

The other story I've heard about the Type I is that the army found it to be more accurate than the Arisaka due to tighter tolerances, but was unacceptable as they did not bear the mark of the Emperor, the chrysanthemum. Many were found unissued in warehouses after the surrender.

That is true that only the Imperial Japanese Army Soldiers were issued rifles with the chrysanthemum. It seems crazy that Type I's were found in warehouses when the Japanese were so desperate to make rifles towards the end. Why build all those last ditch rifles when there were new rifles in storage? At least they could have issued them to civilians if the Army wouldn't accept them.

The dead sniper I mentioned earlier was a Marine, that's why he had a Type I.

 

[Ross3914]

A C&Rsenal history on the Arisaka Type 38.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDlh_1tBHE&index=4&list=PLJvsSlrbdhn7mzhN7xsTSPjfwNd49FExO"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDlh_1tBHE&index=4&list=PLJvsSlrbdhn7mzhN7xsTSPjfwNd49FExO[/ame]

These videos are easily the best researched and presented histories on weapons systems on the internet IMO.

 

[Valmet]

6.5 Arisaka is a hell of a cartridge, I used to shoot it and reload for it. Better than the other 6.5s IMO.

 

[LVSteve]

That is true that only the Imperial Japanese Army Soldiers were issued rifles with the chrysanthemum. It seems crazy that Type I's were found in warehouses when the Japanese were so desperate to make rifles towards the end. Why build all those last ditch rifles when there were new rifles in storage? At least they could have issued them to civilians if the Army wouldn't accept them.

The dead sniper I mentioned earlier was a Marine, that's why he had a Type I.

The "last ditch" rifles were in 7.7 as opposed to 6.5 for the Type I. Maybe that was the problem.

There are a lot of unexplained crazy things regarding small arms in WWII. One of my prized milsurps is a Carcano M1941 made at Cremona, most likely under German supervision judging by its late serial. If it was ever issued you could have fooled me.

Some of my wartime built Enfields are in remarkable shape with matching wood. Given the British army's involvement just about everywhere, I can only guess that these rifles were retained in the UK for airfield or coastal guard duties. Another possible explanation maybe the army decided not to deploy overseas any rifles assembled with non-standard parts. Two of my good rifles are so marked.

 

[DWalt]

There were also Japanese training rifles made which simulated the Type 38's appearance. They were crudely made and were not designed to fire, and would have blown up if you attempted to fire one. They came from several manufacturers and did not have the Emperor's Mum stamp on the front receiver ring. They were used in Japanese schools, in which military training was required of all male students, sort of like ROTC I suppose. The great majority of them were destroyed after the war and few survived. I have one, the so-called "Izawa Type."

Some of the Type 38 6.5mm GI bringbacks were rechambered to .257 Roberts. The .257 bullets were a little small for the bore but I guess they worked after a fashion. Some years ago I saw a sporterized Type 38 in .257 Roberts.

 

[DWalt]

6.5 Arisaka is a hell of a cartridge, I used to shoot it and reload for it. Better than the other 6.5s IMO.

I'd say the best of the various 6.5mm military cartridges is clearly the 6.5x55 Swede in terms of performance. The WWI Russian Fedorov Avtomat rifle is considered to be the very first military "Assault Rifle" design. Fedorov chambered it for the 6.5 Japanese as he considered it to be the best available cartridge of that time for use in an assault rifle.

 

[Valmet]

6.5 Swede is an absolutely fantastic cartridge that’s really stood the test of time.

6.5 Jap was pretty ahead of its time IMO. The long-bullet reminds me of the 5.45...

 

[diyj98]

Some of the Type 38 6.5mm GI bringbacks were rechambered to .257 Roberts. The .257 bullets were a little small for the bore but I guess they worked after a fashion. Some years ago I saw a sporterized Type 38 in .257 Roberts.

Some Type 99, 7.7's were rechambered to 30-06 as well. Same principal in that the .308 bullet was undersized in the .311 bore so you couldn't hit he broad side of barn with them, but at least you could find cheap ammo!

 

[THE PILGRIM]

The first time I saw a Swede Carbine - that’s got to be one of the sweetest slickest rifles ever built!
Once I had 2 Spanish 1895 Mauser Type Carbines 7x57.
They sort of looked like Swedes, until you actually looked a little closer.
I actually had folks drop them back on the gun show table!

 

[moosedog]

I found this one in a pawn shop about 15 years ago. You couldn't even see the rifling it was so corroded. After working on the bore for several weeks I couldn't believe how it cleaned up and groups my reloads so well.
Certainly not the quality of the WWII German, British or American rifles, but utilitarian for sure. Sorry for the crummy pix.

 

[KEN L]

I found this one in a pawn shop about 15 years ago. You couldn't even see the rifling it was so corroded. After working on the bore for several weeks I couldn't believe how it cleaned up and groups my reloads so well.
Certainly not the quality of the WWII German, British or American rifles, but utilitarian for sure. Sorry for the crummy pix.

You did well to find one with the MUM still intact. I have a Type 38 rifle with a peep rear sight that is a tack driver. A veteran's father gave it to my father when I was quite small. Still have it and the bayonet to this day!

 

[DWalt]

Finding an Arisaka with the mum intact is nearly a rarity these days. For a GI to return with a Jap rifle as a war souvenir, the mum had to be ground off under orders from MacArthur. Something about showing respect for Emperor Hirohito. If I were MacArthur I am sure I could have come up with some more creative ways to show my respect for the Emperor. A few rifles escaped that fate, but not many. I once had one of them, a Type 99 in 7.7mm. Unfortunately its bore was in sad shape, despite the fact that it should have been hard chromed. Or so the references say. I formed a lot of 7.7 brass from .30-'06 cases using a .303 FL die. It's a fact - you can reload 7.7 Jap with .303 British dies as the case dimensions (aside from the .303 being rimmed) are so close.