U.S. Marked 38 Safety Hammerless 3rd Model.
- Thread starter miss.t
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Masterpiece
Member
Yes your Revolver,if Original,definitely needs a Factory Letter!! These are seldom seen & very rare!! If,in fact,it is was a US Issue New Departure it will be well worth the $50 fee Roy charges,but without the letter it cannot be considered to be the "Real Deal"!! I have looked at quite a few of these over the years that were claimed to be "Original",but didn't "Letter"!! There supposedly were approx. 100 of these issued to the US Government & that makes them a "Very Rare" Safety Hammerless!! Hope you'll decide to have it Lettered. The Holster looks to be period as well which will add to it's value if the Revolver is Original. Good Luck!!
mg357
Absent Comrade
very sexy revolver
bmcgilvray
SWCA Member
I'm really interested in the outcome of this.
For what purpose did the government purchase approximately 100 of these revolvers?
For what purpose did the government purchase approximately 100 of these revolvers?
cflier
Member
Welcome Miss.T,
If that is a US test revolver that is a heck of a start for a collection of Safety Hammerless revolvers. The letters look just like the stamping on the ones I've seen, but they look just a little large. That could be my imagination, so definitely have it lettered. A 70 % US Test Safety Hammerless Revolver sold for something over $24000 at the George Martin Auction a few years ago and a 30% one went for over $10000. Of course they both had factory letters of authentication. That was before the economy went south, but highly desirable collectors guns tend to hold their value well. Those two guns sat for sale from a private collection for &12000 and $5000 for a year before the auction. I knew that it was a good investment, but not that good. I have kicked myself regularly since then for not buying one or both. I know of about a half dozen of them in collectors hands and they are considered very desirable.
bmcgilvray, the government had S&W send 100 of them to be tested in a head to head competition with the colt 38 in April of 1890. They may have been the first of the 3rd models as they were numbered in the 2nd model series. They were tested by a calvary unit for some time and the armorers also soaked them in buckets of salt, and mud. The Safety Hammerless guns were found to be more accurate, and faster to shoot and load. The Colts because their tolerances weren't so tight did much better on the salt water/rust test and mud and dust testing. Also the army armorers could take the colts apart and fix them much easier and quicker than the S&Ws so Colt ultimately got the contract. The army sent the S&W revolvers back to the factory where they were refurbished and then languished for a couple of years. The next stop was to a NY hardware store where the official record ends. There is a great amount of documentation on these revolvers including govt records, and officer comments and peronal letters. I know of at least 2 that have been faked and of course were not letterable.
Mark
If that is a US test revolver that is a heck of a start for a collection of Safety Hammerless revolvers. The letters look just like the stamping on the ones I've seen, but they look just a little large. That could be my imagination, so definitely have it lettered. A 70 % US Test Safety Hammerless Revolver sold for something over $24000 at the George Martin Auction a few years ago and a 30% one went for over $10000. Of course they both had factory letters of authentication. That was before the economy went south, but highly desirable collectors guns tend to hold their value well. Those two guns sat for sale from a private collection for &12000 and $5000 for a year before the auction. I knew that it was a good investment, but not that good. I have kicked myself regularly since then for not buying one or both. I know of about a half dozen of them in collectors hands and they are considered very desirable.
bmcgilvray, the government had S&W send 100 of them to be tested in a head to head competition with the colt 38 in April of 1890. They may have been the first of the 3rd models as they were numbered in the 2nd model series. They were tested by a calvary unit for some time and the armorers also soaked them in buckets of salt, and mud. The Safety Hammerless guns were found to be more accurate, and faster to shoot and load. The Colts because their tolerances weren't so tight did much better on the salt water/rust test and mud and dust testing. Also the army armorers could take the colts apart and fix them much easier and quicker than the S&Ws so Colt ultimately got the contract. The army sent the S&W revolvers back to the factory where they were refurbished and then languished for a couple of years. The next stop was to a NY hardware store where the official record ends. There is a great amount of documentation on these revolvers including govt records, and officer comments and peronal letters. I know of at least 2 that have been faked and of course were not letterable.
Mark
Please keep us advised on the results of your letters.
Masterpiece
Member
miss.t,
Mark's historical background says it all!! I am not as good with explaining sometimes as he is & didn't want to get your hopes up to high without the Letter. I'm glad to see that you are going to contact Roy with some photos & information. It's the "Only" way to clarify it's authenticity!! I also agree that it looks to be correct especially since the Holster looks to be period also. I wish you the very best of luck & hope to see your reply posted when the letter comes back. A Great Find to say the least!!!!
Masterpiece
Mark's historical background says it all!! I am not as good with explaining sometimes as he is & didn't want to get your hopes up to high without the Letter. I'm glad to see that you are going to contact Roy with some photos & information. It's the "Only" way to clarify it's authenticity!! I also agree that it looks to be correct especially since the Holster looks to be period also. I wish you the very best of luck & hope to see your reply posted when the letter comes back. A Great Find to say the least!!!!
Masterpiece
cflier
Member
Well, I went to the catalog and checked my memory and as I have learned it's a good thing for me to do. The prices of the Greg Martin Auction Guns I mentioned above were slightly differant than I remembered. The first gun was in 80 to 90 % original condition and sold for $23370 which included the 15% buyers premium. The 2nd gun was listed as a 30% finish and sold for $8625 which also included the buyers premium. If you or I were selling them we would realize about 3/4 of that amount by the time the sellers fee and buyers premium was deducted.
Miss.T you can see from this that if your gun is one of the original 100 coming out of the woodwork after all these years it will be worth some serious coin. The two in the auction were in better condition then yours, but it is still something most antique Safety buffs would really like to have. I only know of three US Safety Hammerless test revolvers that have come up for sale in the last 10 years. I really feel that there won't be another on the auction block for many more years.
Mark
Miss.T you can see from this that if your gun is one of the original 100 coming out of the woodwork after all these years it will be worth some serious coin. The two in the auction were in better condition then yours, but it is still something most antique Safety buffs would really like to have. I only know of three US Safety Hammerless test revolvers that have come up for sale in the last 10 years. I really feel that there won't be another on the auction block for many more years.
Mark
Well, now you guys are getting me excited. I'ts going to be a long few weeks unitil I can see if it will letter or not.
It's been lying around here for ever and never really paid it any mind. Sorry to tell you all, but this is not something I collect.
I'll let ya'll know.
It's been lying around here for ever and never really paid it any mind. Sorry to tell you all, but this is not something I collect.
I'll let ya'll know.
Out of curiosity, how do they fake these guns? Seems it would be hard when there is a known serial number range (although the range goes a little over the 100 guns they said they used so there must have been a few in that bunch that were not U.S. marked. Or is there another model they try to pass off?
Masterpiece
Member
Hi Miss.T,
If your Revolver turns out to be Correct you won't have to collect anything else!! You will already have a "Great Collection" in just one revolver to be more than proud of!!!!! To answer your latest inquiry there are other 6" Revolvers out there!! Not necessarily in that Serial Number Range,but with a Revolver as Rare as this Shady Collectors will go to great extents to falsify Serial Numbers,Stampings & Etc.!! Hopefully this will not be the case with this one. Keep your fingers crossed. I know all of us are for you!!!
If your Revolver turns out to be Correct you won't have to collect anything else!! You will already have a "Great Collection" in just one revolver to be more than proud of!!!!! To answer your latest inquiry there are other 6" Revolvers out there!! Not necessarily in that Serial Number Range,but with a Revolver as Rare as this Shady Collectors will go to great extents to falsify Serial Numbers,Stampings & Etc.!! Hopefully this will not be the case with this one. Keep your fingers crossed. I know all of us are for you!!!
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twaits
Member
This is very interesting! I've never heard of such a revolver. I am looking foward to what Roy says about it.
Masterpiece
Member
miss.t,
!!Fantastic News!!
Glad to hear Roy's Letter confirms it's Authentic!! By chance,did Roy have anything to say about the Holster?? You should also post the last section of his letter that gives the specifics if it's Shipping Destination for us all to see!!
As far as your plans for it,I certainly would hope you will hold on to it for a while before making a hasty decision!! It is "Very Valuable" & with the state of the economy right now,I think I'd wait before deciding to let it go right at the moment if that is your intention. Hopefully you'll decide to keep it!! As long as you can preserve it's present condition it will always be "Money in the Bank"!!
Glad to hear the Good News!!
!!Fantastic News!!
Glad to hear Roy's Letter confirms it's Authentic!! By chance,did Roy have anything to say about the Holster?? You should also post the last section of his letter that gives the specifics if it's Shipping Destination for us all to see!!
As far as your plans for it,I certainly would hope you will hold on to it for a while before making a hasty decision!! It is "Very Valuable" & with the state of the economy right now,I think I'd wait before deciding to let it go right at the moment if that is your intention. Hopefully you'll decide to keep it!! As long as you can preserve it's present condition it will always be "Money in the Bank"!!
Glad to hear the Good News!!
twaits
Member
Congratulations! How did Roy word it in the letter?
Roy Jinks
Mr Jinks wrote: We have researched you s&w .38 safety hammerless third model, caliber .38 Smith & Wesson, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun was shipped from our factory on May 31st, 1890 and delivered to United States Government, National Armory, Springfield, MA. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 6 inch barrel, blue finish, and checkered black hard rubber grips. This is one of the 100 units ordered by the United States Army for testing on the Western Frontier.
I had sent detailed photos to Mr Jinks to make sure he thought the gun was authentic but I didn't think to send a pic of the holster.
As for keeping it, I used to collect WWII military rifles and WWII handguns. But I gave up my collection years ago when family problems forced me to use my collection to start my business. I'm determined not to start again, it was like a sickness, had hundreds of guns.
I know it may be hard for some of you to realize that I don't want this gun, but it's not a gun I would have had in my collection to begin with. Out of my area. I do appreciate the advise.
Mr Jinks wrote: We have researched you s&w .38 safety hammerless third model, caliber .38 Smith & Wesson, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun was shipped from our factory on May 31st, 1890 and delivered to United States Government, National Armory, Springfield, MA. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 6 inch barrel, blue finish, and checkered black hard rubber grips. This is one of the 100 units ordered by the United States Army for testing on the Western Frontier.
I had sent detailed photos to Mr Jinks to make sure he thought the gun was authentic but I didn't think to send a pic of the holster.
As for keeping it, I used to collect WWII military rifles and WWII handguns. But I gave up my collection years ago when family problems forced me to use my collection to start my business. I'm determined not to start again, it was like a sickness, had hundreds of guns.
I know it may be hard for some of you to realize that I don't want this gun, but it's not a gun I would have had in my collection to begin with. Out of my area. I do appreciate the advise.
Masterpiece
Member
miss.t,
Sorry to hear you aren't planning on keeping it!! That's a shame!! If your intent is to put it on the market,I'm sure someone here would have interest!! Another possibility is maybe one or more of the members from the SWCA could give you some direction on a way to get it consigned into one of the more prestigious Firearms Auctions like Rock Island,Julia's or Amoskeag if you would want to take that route. I also have no doubt that the New Departure/Safety Hammerless Collectors on the site will possibly have interest in it for their collections & contact you as well. I wish you all the best & glad we may have been of some help!!
Good Luck!!!
Sorry to hear you aren't planning on keeping it!! That's a shame!! If your intent is to put it on the market,I'm sure someone here would have interest!! Another possibility is maybe one or more of the members from the SWCA could give you some direction on a way to get it consigned into one of the more prestigious Firearms Auctions like Rock Island,Julia's or Amoskeag if you would want to take that route. I also have no doubt that the New Departure/Safety Hammerless Collectors on the site will possibly have interest in it for their collections & contact you as well. I wish you all the best & glad we may have been of some help!!
Good Luck!!!
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