Update corrected letter-Model of 1903 Target 32 HE-

[raljr1]

So this was from a Rock Island Auction, part of a 3 gun lot. I did not think my bid would prevail, but it did. There was a 32 HE which O sold here, and A 4 digit Regulation Police 38 which I will likely keep.

This 32 Target has date stamps from 1.27 and 11.58. at some point it was modified to a rebated backstrap to accept RP grips. That is how it arrived to me.

So this 32 has been refinished but retains most of that finish, So I assume the refinish was in 1958. Let's see if the deep dive holds any pleasant surprises.

So the letter indicates it shipped Schoverling, Daly, & Gales in New York City on February 19, 1911. Shipped with the blued finish.

Robert

 

[glowe]

Interesting gun with two return stamps. I believe I have seen more Model 1903s with multiple factory returns than any other model??? More delicate maybe thana larger frame models. I had two 1903s with return stamps, one for a barrel replacement and the other for two unmarked returns.

 

[SouthNarc]

So this was from a Rock Island Auction, part of a 3 gun lot. I did not think my bid would prevail, but it did. There was a 32 HE which O sold here, and A 4 digit Regulation Police 38 which I will likely keep.

This 32 Target has date stamps from 1.27 and 11.58. at some point it was modified to a rebated backstrap to accept RP grips. That is how it arrived to me. The letter says it shipped February 15, 1911 to Lyon, Cowdrey, and Wilson. They must have become Cowdrey and Company a few years later as I have 2 triple locks that shipped to them in a couple weeks apart in 1916.

So this 32 has been refinished but retains most of that finish, So I assume the refinish was in 1958. Let's see if the deep dive holds any pleasant surprises. When I know, you will.

Robert

Robert as I read the letter it says it shipped with square butt walnut extension stocks.

Wouldn’t that mean that the backstrap was rebated by the factory?

 

[raljr1]

Robert as I read the letter it says it shipped with square butt walnut extension stocks.

Wouldn’t that mean that the backstrap was rebated by the factory?

Perhaps, but the letter doesn't refer to it as a Regulation Police. Correspondence does, however.

In the confirmation note indicating the price. it is referred to as 32 RP. The letter makes no reference to that/ The correspondence from Mr. Parks indicated that the finish is to be changed from nickel to blue. Again on the typed letter from Mr. Parks, someone has written 32 RP Blue on the letter. Looks like Mr Parks writing, but who knows. SW letter say blue, no RP. Parks letter says change finish from nickel to blue. No mention in any of this of the rebating of the frame. Maybe it was that way originally. The serial number is not on the front of the grip frame.

 

[22hipower]

I wondered where that one went. I bid on it too but not enough. . . I like it.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[SouthNarc]

Perhaps, but the letter doesn't refer to it as a Regulation Police. Correspondence does, however.

In the confirmation note indicating the price. it is referred to as 32 RP. The letter makes no reference to that/ The correspondence from Mr. Parks indicated that the finish is to be changed from nickel to blue. Again on the typed letter from Mr. Parks, someone has written 32 RP Blue on the letter. Looks like Mr Parks writing, but who knows. SW letter say blue, no RP. Parks letter says change finish from nickel to blue. No mention in any of this of the rebating of the frame. Maybe it was that way originally. The serial number is not on the front of the grip frame.

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Super interesting. There seem to be a number of “non RP” .32 HEs in the wild with rebated back straps.

I still think my 1903 2nd Model 5th change was rebated at the factory, despite that lack of information in the letter.

 

[glowe]

Documentation from 1926/7 did not have the naming convention that McHenry & Roper invented in their 1945 book. Definitely should be a 32 HE, 5th and not a Regulation Police that did not appear until around #263,000 according to Roy. As I read the documents, there was no mention of the rebated frame being done and if it was done in 1927 the stocks would have been without medallions unless they had some 1917-1920 stocks laying around? Those stocks would have been placed on both Regulation Police , 22/32 HFT, and 32 Regulation Police starting in 1917, The note did not mention anything about changing the stocks, so how did those stocks appear on a gun made well before 1917?? That work would have definitely been a pretty expensive job to perform, so why no mention on the quote?

Lots of questions to answer, one being where is the serial number on the butt? Is there any way the serial number could be mis-read?

 

[raljr1]

Serial number is on the bottom of the butt. I transposed number on the letter request so my letter is not correct. I will likely have to order a replacement.

You are correct, there is no mention of cutting the backstrap, so I have to assume that happened in November 1958. There is so far no service department record for that return. According to Michael Helms the revolver shipped in 1920,the shipping date does overlap the availability of RP models, so who knows. Once I get a correct letter, I will repost.

Sorry for the mess up.

 

[SouthNarc]

Robert I find it interesting that as of now there are two examples of a 1903 2nd/5th change that have rebated backstraps that also have no serial number on the front strap and no factory record of the backstrap being rebated.

Here’s mine along with the letter in the last post to refresh the discussion.

Second I frame!

@glowe @DCWilson what are your opinions on this?

 

[raljr1]

Robert I find it interesting that as of now there are two examples of a 1903 2nd/5th change that have rebated backstraps that also have no serial number on the front strap and no factory record of the backstrap being rebated.

Here’s mine along with the letter in the last post to refresh the discussion.

Second I frame!

@glowe @DCWilson what are your opinions on this?

Mike Helms is going to get me a correct letter and see what else might turn up...where is the target model picture in your thread taken from.

 

[SouthNarc]

Mike Helms is going to get me a correct letter and see what else might turn up...where is the target model picture in your thread taken from.

That’s your’s buddy.

 

[paplinker]

Robert I find it interesting that as of now there are two examples of a 1903 2nd/5th change that have rebated backstraps that also have no serial number on the front strap and no factory record of the backstrap being rebated.

Here’s mine along with the letter in the last post to refresh the discussion.

Second I frame!

@glowe @DCWilson what are your opinions on this?

I own a 22/32 kitgun that has a rebated frame but the serial number is on the butt. There are no rework stamps and looking at the gun it very much appears to be original finish. It is a 6/29/40 gun. I just contacted Mike to look for service records or an invoice.

I am not sure if all rebated frames are ordered that way or if they were made in batches. Looking at my kitgun it does look original and even serial spacing looks fine.

 

[glowe]

Serial number is on the bottom of the butt. I transposed number on the letter request so my letter is not correct. I will likely have to order a replacement.

You are correct, there is no mention of cutting the backstrap, so I have to assume that happened in November 1958. There is so far no service department record for that return. According to Michael Helms the revolver shipped in 1920,the shipping date does overlap the availability of RP models, so who knows. Once I get a correct letter, I will repost.

Sorry for the mess up.

A 32 HE Target made after 1917 would have likely had rebated single screw stocks until 1920. If the gun did ship in 1920, it could have easily been manufactured in 1919 so the rebate and stocks would be factory. In 1920 the stocks were replaced with single screw non-medallion stocks until 1923 when 2 screw stocks were started again. I believe the factory used the medallion single screw stocks up to 1920 since they were standard on the 32 RP from 1917 to 1920. The frames for both models were likely both rebated during that time. There is another anomaly shown in Roy's book on page 82, where is shows a 32 RP with the rebated single screw gold medallion stocks and states the serial number is 439929??

 

[raljr1]

A 32 HE Target made after 1917 would have likely had rebated single screw stocks until 1920. If the gun did ship in 1920, it could have easily been manufactured in 1919 so the rebate and stocks would be factory. In 1920 the stocks were replaced with single screw non-medallion stocks until 1923 when 2 screw stocks were started again. I believe the factory used the medallion single screw stocks up to 1920 since they were standard on the 32 RP from 1917 to 1920. The frames for both models were likely both rebated during that time. There is another anomaly shown in Roy's book on page 82, where is shows a 32 RP with the rebated single screw gold medallion stocks and states the serial number is 439929??

Gary, your logic holds if the gun wasnt manufactured, or the frame finished until then. This cursory look at ship dates for guns with lower and higher serial numbers shipping in the 1913 to 1914 time frame so the frame at least was serialized well before 1920. Let's see what else we learn after Mike replies to me

I am out of my depth here so I am learning as I go. I appreciate the comments

 

[mrcvs]

A 32 HE Target made after 1917 would have likely had rebated single screw stocks until 1920. If the gun did ship in 1920, it could have easily been manufactured in 1919 so the rebate and stocks would be factory. In 1920 the stocks were replaced with single screw non-medallion stocks until 1923 when 2 screw stocks were started again. I believe the factory used the medallion single screw stocks up to 1920 since they were standard on the 32 RP from 1917 to 1920. The frames for both models were likely both rebated during that time. There is another anomaly shown in Roy's book on page 82, where is shows a 32 RP with the rebated single screw gold medallion stocks and states the serial number is 439929??

This revolver has the Smith & Wesson logo on the frame and those assembled and/or shipped in 1919 mostly or always lack this logo on the frame. Meaning 1919 is unlikely.

 

[mrcvs]

Also, most interestingly, there’s no “MADE IN USA” stamped on the frame which was, I thought, standard protocol to stamp on a revolver that went back to Smith & Wesson after circa 1922, when this began to be regularly stamped on the frame at the time of manufacture.

 

[glowe]

Serial number is on the bottom of the butt. I transposed number on the letter request so my letter is not correct. I will likely have to order a replacement . . .

Unless I missed it, you have not mentioned your revised serial number??

As far as the logo is concerned, I have in my notes that the left side logo ran from 1919 to 1937. That infers there was an order to stamp the logo issued in 1919. The MADE IN USA stamping was not ordered until May 1922. I believe that the updated stampings did not start until post-WWII? Roy did not put a stop to the process until somewhere around 1970.

 

[red9]

I have two 32HE's (s/n on butt, no rebate) with period correct unnumbered two screw targets. Why rebate a HE when these stocks were available. Neither gun is lettered; would these targets have been numbered if original?

Bob

 

[paplinker]

I have two 32HE's (s/n on butt, no rebate) with period correct unnumbered two screw targets. Why rebate a HE when these stocks were available. Neither gun is lettered; would these targets have been numbered if original?

Bob

One guess might be for holstering?
My kitgun sold from Abercrombie-Fitch and was sold to me with a prewar Heiser holster with a Ab and Fitch stamp on the back. A two screw holster would not fit in that rig.

 

[raljr1]

Unless I missed it, you have not mentioned your revised serial number??

As far as the logo is concerned, I have in my notes that the left side logo ran from 1919 to 1937. That infers there was an order to stamp the logo issued in 1919. The MADE IN USA stamping was not ordered until May 1922. I believe that the updated stampings did not start until post-WWII? Roy did not put a stop to the process until somewhere around 1970.

Correct number is 128980 That matches the correspondence from the Historical Society. The letter is for 128890