Victory Model, Old fourth, or Parts Made up?

[Biginge]

Just got this today for a pitance. Well, almost a pitance. Really need help on this "Lend lease Victory model." I know it has the wrong grips (medallions not serial # to gun). However it is marked United States Property on top strap, has a broad arrow on left side plate, serial #'s all match (Butt, under the flat, cylinder. Has a star just above the hand. It looks like there is the faintest of V left of the lanyard loop with serial # 868652 opposite of lanyard loop. There is a flaming ordnance bomb (ever so faint forward on butt. Last patent date on barrel is Dec 20, 1914 with that line under the S&W Springfield,Mass. USA. " It is a 5 screw. S&W Logo on right side plate, 38 S&W Ctg. on right side of barrell. Additionally, there is an * between the hammer and the recoil shield on the left side of the frame. I will continue to try and upload pics. Man, pics are gonna be the failing of me. These markings below are on the left side of barrell.
F.R.
RFI
1967
I would assume this is an import mark?

Any and all info appreciated here. I am trying to load pics but having trouble.

Thanks
Bill

 

[murphydog]

It is likely a .38/200 British service revolver, if the V is present one of the later guns in the Victory series. The last stampings mentioned may be arsenal marks of a refinish.

To post photos, click on Post Reply under the messages, then Manage Attachments, then a pop-up box will open to post photos off your computer or a web address.

 

[Goony]

The serial number is too high to be a true V-prefixed "Victory" - I believe you have there a Lend Lease Pre-Victory circa 1941.

The barrel markings do not seem to conform to what is typical for importing a firearm into the U.S. but I cannot otherwise shed any light on their significance.

 

[Biginge]

The more I look the more I don't think there is a V there on the butt. However, I am sure it is the ordnance bomb though. Any idea as to value of this piece? It really is nice, (no rust) just the funky old finish they used.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Goony]

The more I look the more I don't think there is a V there on the butt. However, I am sure it is the ordnance bomb though. Any idea as to value of this piece? It really is nice, (no rust) just the funky old finish they used.

In the period when these were being turned out, it still should've been blued. If it's presently sporting a phosphate finish, it has likely been reworked at some point.

These .38/200 chambered examples are not as desirable as those in .38 Special. In excellent original condition, with matching stocks, a motivated buyer, and the stars and planets aligned just so, $300 can be eked out of one, although undoubtedly somebody will now come forward to tell me how much more he was able to get for his.

 

[Texas Star]

Could one of those markings be FTR? (Factory Thorough Repair)

Do you see a stamp that reads MA? (Munitions Australia)

This sounds like an Aussie rework. The finish on a 1941 gun woud be blue, but I'm not sure it'd have US Property on it. The early UK guns were paid for by the British, with S&W making them, to sub for a 9mm light rifle that didn't work.

Later ones were often Lend Lease and would carry US markings.

If this is not an Aussie gun, look for any other markings. It may be a Canadian, South African, British, or New Zealand item. I need to know all of the symbols.

Photos are of major value in telling what you have.

It was reworked in 1967, and may have seen service in Vietnam as well as in WW II. But I think Australia was issuing Browning 9mm's by the time of the Viet war.

 

[scha]

Earlier Lend Lease British Service Revolvers were marked "United States Property" on the top strap. This was later changed to "US Property GHD". I think it is correct to have a British Service Revolver without a "V" in the serial number and the "United States Property". Many of these were guns sent to Australia - and many of these went to rebuild and were marked "FTR".

Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[opoefc]

What's the barrel length? You didn't mention any serial number being on the barrel, which it should be if the barrel is original. Look on the barrel flat under the ejector rod. The 1914 patent date is correct for a Pre-Victory Model gun.The stampings you cite are from a military armory overhaul, probably in Australia in 1967, but it could have been in Britain. The "V' you think you might be seeing on the butt, is probably a weak stamping of a "W" as the serial number is much too high to have a V prefix. That W stamp is still a mystery to Victory collectors, as it appears at random on guns shipped years apart. Ed.

 

[Biginge]

Yes, it does have the matching serial # under the flat. I have some really good photos (taken outside) if I can EVER get them to load on this forum. I can email, etc. to others but I can't upload to this forum. The more I look at this compared to the old one I had years ago I believe it is blue, the cylinder for sure. It does not appear as the phosphate or whatever that looked like it had been bead blasted. Hopefully I will get pics up soon. I just chambered a .38 S&W ctg. as marked on the barrell. Fit fine. A .38 special will not go much beyond about half way. I assume this headspaces on the case mouth in this caliber?

Thanks for all your input guys.

Bill

 

[Biginge]

Barrell length is 5 ".

 

[Biginge]

Is there a picture here?

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello Big:

Your revolver is indeed a pre-Victory Lend Lease gun. It is already listed in the Victory Model Database.

The RFI barrel marking indicates that your revolver spent some time in India. It is not an import marking. The marking signifies that the revolver was rebuilt at the Rifle Factory, Ishapore in 1967. At one time India was, of course, part of the British Commonwealth and as such had tons of weapons of the type used by British and Commonwealth Forces. Ishapore is the site of a large arsenal that over the years has manufactured and serviced the ordnance needs of Great Britain, Commonwealth Forces and later those of India as an independent nation.

HTH.

 

[Biginge]

Thanks Charlie,

Where would I find this Victory Model database. I think everything about this gun is correct except the grips. I knew they were not issued with medalions in the Victories , at least I don't think they were. When I got it home for its bath sure enough they did not # to the gun.

Thanks to all you guys for your input. Really having fun on this forum.

Regards
Bill

 

[Biginge]

Still trying to add pics of Pre Victory.

 

[Biginge]

Found my micro light and found one more series of numbers under the barrell just forward of cylinder latch . They are 01ALD.VI . Don't know if this is an importer or what. Any additional info appreciated.

Thanks
Bill

 

[ordnanceguy]

Big:

Yes, that is likely the importer's marking as required by Federal law. In this case the marking is almost certainly that of Century Arms, Inc. of St. Albans, Vermont. Its typical marking is something like "CAI St Alb VT"

HTH.

 

[fitlerbend]

If abbreviations could be FTR and RFI they would indicate Factory
Through Rebuild (or Refurbish) at Rifle Factory Ishapore (India)

These abbreviations are common on British rifles. I am not that familiar with the Lend Lease Victories.

 

[Biginge]

I think we have found the answers on this one. Thanks guys. All I need now is the proper stocks and I will have a "real one".

Really appreciate all of your input.

regards
Bill

 

[Goony]

Bill, since the gun was in India, I really think you need to find some ivory stocks for it.

 

[fitlerbend]

Additional note, the "*" mark is a mark of rebuilt or upgrade.

In the rifles, there is a SMLE No.1, Mark III and SMLE No. 1, Mark III*. The "*" indicates the magazine cut-off and the volley sights have been removed.

I do not know if there is a specific significance of the * on the Lend Lease Victory.