Victory Serials/Shipments

[Historian13]

Good evening guys,

To what extent did S&W ship Victory models in sequential order? Likewise, how large would shipments usually be?

My buddy is offering me a commonwealth marked .38 S&W Victory and I'm on the fence. Doing a little digging though, I've learned it's 14 serials shy of one documented OSS Victory revolver, and about 750 serials ahead of another. Now I'm trying to gauge the likelihood this has that provenance too.

 

[DWalt]

Serial number? What is stamped on the topstrap? OSS guns would have nothing there. Other markings? Good pictures would help.

 

[JP@AK]

how large would shipments usually be?

I can't speak for the whole war, but here is an example late in the war:
On February 23, 1945, S&W sent a shipment to the Oakland Navy Yard that contained 1,200 units.

Maybe Charlie can tell us how common that was. I suspect it wasn't unusual. I suspect that OSS shipments would not be that large, but that is just my guess.

 

[Historian13]

Serial number? What is stamped on the topstrap? OSS guns would have nothing there. Other markings? Good pictures would help.

I dont have the serial or pictures off hand, but it's a V prefix in the mid-late 400's. The top strap is marked US property; however, while I have read that US 4" .38 spl OSS revolvers would be missing that, I found this website

https://www.hearmyselftalkhistory.com/featured-firearm/british-victory-revolver

which claims essentially all .38 S&W lend lease pistols, including those funneled by the OSS, have the US property mark due to the belief the US had to take ownership of the firearm before lending them out.

I can't speak for the whole war, but here is an example late in the war:
On February 23, 1945, S&W sent a shipment to the Oakland Navy Yard that contained 1,200 units.

Maybe Charlie can tell us how common that was. I suspect it wasn't unusual. I suspect that OSS shipments would not be that large, but that is just my guess.

Sure, thanks for the info. For whatever it's worth, both of the OSS pistols bracketing this one went to the same place. I know that once pistols are out in the wild then their serials can have some significant gaps, but I'm figuring straight from the factory there would be more uniformity. I could certainly be wrong though.

 

[Matt_X]

I wouldn't be so sure about the lend lease claim. First, the British were purchasing before the V series began. Further these could have been direct British purchase by the British Purchasing Commission.

After reading that blog post its clearly speculative and repeats some popular generalizations. This one is much better. Canfield is a pretty well respected author on military firearms of the era and references some of his sources.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | "V" Is For Victory: The Smith & Wesson Victory Model Revolver

Although the M1911A1 was the standard U.S military sidearm during World War II, more than 350,000 S&W Victory Model revolvers were produced, and they accompanied many U.S. Navy and Marine Corps aviators during pivotal battles of the Pacific Theater.

www.americanrifleman.org

 

[Historian13]

I wouldn't be so sure about the lend lease claim. First, the British were purchasing before the V series began. Further these could have been direct British purchase by the British Purchasing Commission.

After reading that blog post its clearly speculative and repeats some popular generalizations. This one is much better. Canfield is a pretty well respected author on military firearms of the era and references some of his sources.

An Official Journal Of The NRA | "V" Is For Victory: The Smith & Wesson Victory Model Revolver

Although the M1911A1 was the standard U.S military sidearm during World War II, more than 350,000 S&W Victory Model revolvers were produced, and they accompanied many U.S. Navy and Marine Corps aviators during pivotal battles of the Pacific Theater.

www.americanrifleman.org

Gotcha, thanks. I'd also read the article you linked, and it is very informative, but it basically just acknowledges that the OSS shipped thousands of .38 S&W's without going into any details.

Do you (or anyone else reading this) know of any documented Victory .38 S&W revolvers that the OSS funneled overseas? Admittedly I'm only aware of a few instances where someone has shared photos online of a documented OSS Victory revolver to display their markings, but they've all been 4" .38 spl's.

This is purely speculative on my part, but, assuming there aren't any photos of documented OSS .38 S&W's, I wonder if the reason is because they're otherwise indistinguishable from lend lease revolvers.

 

[Matt_X]

Not sure what you mean by funnelled. OSS revolvers in .38 Spl would have mostly been for OSS people. Revolvers to the Brits were mostly .38/200. Exceptions seem to be when either was in a locale where the logistics were such that the other was more practical. It seems similar logic was applied to small arms smuggled or dropped in to resistance cells. The guy to ask is Charlie Frick who posts here as well as USMilitaria forum. You can search his posts at both. JP who replied above is also very knowledgable and could probably point you to others.

Here's some posts and threads that may help.

Post in thread 'Finally! 100% Correct Victory Model'

Apr 7, 2014

I don't think a letter will specifically state that it was shipped to OSS as a destination.

Incorrect.

• ordnanceguy

• 

As you can read here, there is probably an article by Charlie available.

Post in thread 'OSS Victory'

Feb 18, 2016

Absalom:

The key to identifying OSS-shipped Victory Models has been determined. This important topic will be the subject of a forthcoming article on the OSS guns to be published in the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association Journal.

• ordnanceguy

• 

Post in thread 'Victory data base'

Jun 27, 2020

Maybe Charlie can tell us how many different Navy Yards are actually on record in the database.

Absalom:

From the Victory Model Database I can tell you that the great bulk of Navy-shipped Victories were sent from the factory to either the Naval Supply Depot at Oakland, CA or the Naval Supply Depot at Norfolk, VA.

A relative handful of Navy guns went to other destinations from the factory. These include the Springfield Armory, the Navy Yard at Mare Island, CA, and the Puget Sound Navy Yard.

A fair number went to Rosslyn, VA but the current thinking is that those guns were...

• ordnanceguy

• 

Possible OSS Victory!!!

Well, I took a calculated risk on gunbroker and bought this revolver. Victory WW2 38 S&W SPL SER# 662** U.S. PROP 047 backstrap XF revolver - WW1 & WW2 Collectibles at GunBroker.com : 979339929 It has all the same markings as my OSS lettered Victory I already have. It is 32 serial numbers...

www.usmilitariaforum.com

Gun Porn..

I was going through some of my photos looking for something and came across some of my favorite “shots”.. Thanks for looking and post some of yours if you’d like!

www.usmilitariaforum.com

Here's a nice photo

OSS Weapons

I would like to share some OSS items from my collection. First up, In the ordnance department, is the "Beano" grenade which was an experimental hand grenade developed by the Office of Strategic Services with assistance from the Eastman Kodak Company of Rochester, NY. It was the approximate size a...

www.usmilitariaforum.com

 

[Historian13]

Not sure what you mean by funnelled. OSS revolvers in .38 Spl would have mostly been for OSS people. Revolvers to the Brits were mostly .38/200. Exceptions seem to be when either was in a locale where the logistics were such that the other was more practical. It seems similar logic was applied to small arms smuggled or dropped in to resistance cells. The guy to ask is Charlie Frick who posts here as well as USMilitaria forum. You can search his posts at both. JP who replied above is also very knowledgable and could probably point you to others.

From what I've heard, most OSS related Victory revolvers werent for their own issue, but for issuing to allies and resistance groups, whether it's .38 spl or .38 S&W. Are you saying that's mistaken?

Thanks for telling me about Charlie, I've sent him a message.

Thanks for linking those other threads as well. Unfortunately they dont really document the OSS pistols, and they're all 4" presumably .38 spl Victory's

 

[Matt_X]

I would only be guessing as far as the breakdown of what was retained for arming OSS personel.

 

[DWalt]

Most everything I have seen suggests that OSS M&P revolvers are indistinguishable from DSC guns. No flaming bomb stamp, no topstrap property stamp. They will letter as shipping to either Office of Strategic Services in Virginia or to the U. S. Navy warehouse in Rosslyn Virginia. Which may or may not be the same address.
Can that be verified or is there more to the story?

 

[Historian13]

I had heard (without knowing how accurate this is) that one detail that sets OSS revolvers apart from DSC revolvers is the presence of a P proof on OSS revolvers. I've tried to line this up with papered OSS and DSC revolvers, but I dont have a large pool to work off of.

 

[Historian13]

While I'm still anticipating a more in depth conversation with Charlie, I did find a previous post which states flaming bomb and P proofs were universal by 1943 regardless of military, DSC, or maritime contracts. It looks like the secret may lie in an old issue of S&W collectors association as referenced above, because it certainly seems to be a tiny/obscure one

 

[Matt_X]

I can offer that the flaming bomb was used on parts or assemblies purchased through Ordnance. They indicate passing inspection and ownership. For example they show up on various parts for very early production M1 carbines, but then on just the finished assembly and late replacement parts directly purchased. The for example the first US purchases of 38 Spl revolvers ramping up for WW2 didn't go through Ordnance so we wouldn't expect to see a bomb on them.

As far as I know, none of this definative. Some documents have been found relating to marking of parts, but AFAIK nothing is definative. I suspect the same will be found with other US military small arms of this era.

 

[DWalt]

Appears that if a reasonable number of revolvers, perhaps 20 or more, covering a wide range of serial numbers that lettered as being shipped to OSS/Rosslyn could be examined, most questions regarding the typical presence or absence of various stampings could be resolved. I cannot find if anything like that has been done.

 

[Historian13]

That's interesting about early WW2 38's not having the flaming bomb, I dont think I've heard that before.

It would also definitely help if we had more data points. The other issue though is, as far as I know, the only lettered OSS revolvers we've seen at all have been V prefix 4" 38 spl revolvers. Although it appears there isn't much information on them, articles tend to agree the OSS supplied .38 S&W pistols as well. I'm also unsure if the OSS was supplying pre Victory's.

If someone is able, please check 454919. I'm unsure if it's a V prefix, but I'm seeing it as an SRS hit with the OSS in Cairo in March 1944 so I'm betting it is.

 

[kwill1911]

Appears that if a reasonable number of revolvers, perhaps 20 or more, covering a wide range of serial numbers that lettered as being shipped to OSS/Rosslyn could be examined, most questions regarding the typical presence or absence of various stampings could be resolved. I cannot find if anything like that has been done.

Charlie Flick has certainly done it.

 

[DWalt]

If so, has that identification information been made available? I have serial numbers of a few OSS/Rosslyn-lettered revolvers but have seen no further guidance about specific stampings, or lack of same, which reliably establishes that they were originally shipped to OSS. And nothing about how OSS deployed those revolvers during WWII.

 

[Historian13]

I think it's in an article in the S&W Collectors association journal. Someone with access to their site should be able to verify that.

Also, looks like the 454919 serial pistol lettered to Rosslyn, and the pistol my buddy has that started this thread was sent to the generic lend lease depot. From this information, I also confirmed that S&W did not ship in sequential order, and so SRS near misses won't help.

 

[kwill1911]

Members of the SWCA have access to the complete database. The unique characteristics of OSS shipped Victory Models are well documented and were presented at the annual meeting last year.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Do you (or anyone else reading this) know of any documented Victory .38 S&W revolvers that the OSS funneled overseas? Admittedly I'm only aware of a few instances where someone has shared photos online of a documented OSS Victory revolver to display their markings, but they've all been 4" .38 spl's.

Hello Historian 13:

Thanks for your PM. I have returned from my travels with the family and will try to answer the questions you posed.

I hope this does not come across as hopelessly pedantic but the first question to ask is what is an OSS Victory? Is it one that factory records will show as having shipped directly to the OSS, or is it one that was not so shipped but ended up in the possession of the OSS, or perhaps both? I lean towards both.

Since your question is about a .38 S&W gun (which for clarity's sake I will now refer to as .38-200) let's focus on that first. As far as can be determined there were only 4624 .38-200 guns shipped directly to the OSS, according to Charlie Pate. These were guns ordered under contract W-19-ORD-1361. The order was for thousands more but Pate indicates only the 4624 were shipped in early 1945. (Lend Lease orders had ceased by the end of 1944 so continuing production of .38-200 guns was evidently a problem for S&W.) To date and to my knowledge none of those 4624 guns OSS shipped .38-200 guns have come to the attention of the Victory collecting community and none are listed as lettered in the S&WCA's Victory Model Database.

It appears that the great bulk of the .38-200 Victory guns with an OSS association will letter as Lend Lease guns that shipped to the Hartford Ordnance Depot. Those guns have no distinguishing characteristics or marks that will tell a collector that it was an OSS gun.

Excepting only the 4624 guns referenced above which presumably should letter as OSS shipped, the Springfield Research Service database created by the late Frank Mallory and records later uncovered by Charlie Pate and published in the S&WCA Journal are the only sources I know of that will document by serial number a .38-200 gun as one that was in the possession of the OSS. I think that many, perhaps all, of those serial numbers are now in the Victory Model Database.

The situation is quite different with the 4 inch .38 Special OSS guns. Those revolvers were shipped directly to the OSS and will so letter. It is my belief that they were intended to arm OSS personnel in contrast to the .38-200 OSS guns that were primarily intended to arm resistance fighters. The .38 Special OSS guns have particular characteristics that allow the knowledgeable collector to identify them. I revealed those characteristics in my address to the members of the S&WCA present at the 2024 Symposium. My article on how to identify the .38 Special OSS shipped guns will, I hope, be published in the S&WCA Journal in the not too distant future.

Be aware that in WW2 S&W did not ship in strict consecutive serial number order. Additionally, .38 Special and .38-200 guns are mixed and scattered throughout the production run up until the second quarter of 1945. Thus, trying to identify an OSS gun by finding surrounding serial numbers that shipped to or were used by the OSS is fraught with difficulty and, in my judgment, not a reliable method.

I am not sure if I have completely answered your questions but I hope so. As you can see there are many variables involved.

Regards,
Charlie Flick