Vietnam bring back M1 Carbine - Inland -

[Saigon1965]

Gentlemen - It's been awhile since I've posted anything - Hope everyone is well and collecting away at things we enjoy!

This came to me via a friend's collection - He had it for over 20 years - It was part of a huge Vietnam collection from an advanced collector out of Ohio -


I've ran a component listing -

Vietnamese name on butt stock – An improvised rear sight – Improvised front barrel band holding sling – Improvised handguard –


The beauty is that it came with the little gem pictured at the end - I currently do not have the launcher - It is sitting outside of CA -


Please tell me about my Carbine -

And this little gem came with it –

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Interesting Vietnamese name. Looks like Huang is claiming to be Viet Cong. I could be wrong.

Very cool little carbine!

 

[mainegrw]

Very nice...
Is that a live round I see holding the sling into the cutout on the butt?

 

[CATI1835]

Interesting that there is no bayonet mount on it. AFAIK all M1 carbines, in US possession, were fitted with one beginning late in WWII and continuing afterward.

 

[federali]

M1 Crbine

Can't tell for sure but judging by the rear sight and front barrel band, this carbine may have started life as a folding stock paratrooper model.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The only part missing on the barrel band, is the sling "loop", which looks replaced with one from a com-block weapon. If you check the threads on the nut and bolt, I'm willing to wager the are ASE, meaning they are from this country! It also appears galvanized, a no-no for third world and com-block.

I don't see anything "Improvised" about the hand guard, seems in line with the 15 or so that I've owned.

The grenade launcher appears very similar to Spanish after market parts I have in my junk drawer! The little wing nuts will be a major clue as to the origin. Launching grenades is very hard on the wrist area and usually leave splits along the grain on larger rifles (these seem to be missing), which is why the US and allies didn't use M-1's for that function.

The rear sight is like none I've ever seen, but it looks very professional!

Why would a Viet Cong or Viet Mein solider write his name in European script instead of Vietnamese?

I think the magazine is in unusually good condition for a weapon drug through the jungle. Also look for LEAD build up in the gas piston. The VC used cast bullets in reloads (very surprisingly). Lead will build up and oxidize to a white color as opposed to green from copper. The round that is replacing the oiler at the rear of the sling looks like a lead bullet. (A point in your favor.) Check that primer, look for a primer pocket that is swaged or reamed to seat a new primer (if so, it is an American reload)

I think you have a very useful M-1 Carbine, but if it was captured from the enemy, it would have paperwork the allows the owner to bring it home! I hate to rain on your parade, but I think you have been coned out of your money. (Or if the price was right, you have a nice shooter.)

Ivan

 

[triaxle]

Thats a nice M1 my dad had one when he could buy them for 20.00. Now my brother has it .A friend brought back a ci com type 68 came with a 20 round mag I think and it looked like a SKS but was not had a little fiber glass upper hand guard with a rate reducer John always said hears fast give it a turn and say hears to dam fast . I love to see that stuff your M1 is nice .

 

[chud333]

It's a mish mash M1 carbine but if you got it right and
like to shoot these, have fun with it.
This is what my grandmaw would say, "It's a bad marriage".
I'm also sorry but don't think it's a bring back for the reasons
mentioned previously by Ivan and others.
Looking at the top of receiver very poor fit (even for these).
I would say the rifle has been re-stocked.

Take it out and run a bunch of ammo thru it and have a blast !!


Chuck

 

[DWalt]

Interesting that there is no bayonet mount on it. AFAIK all M1 carbines, in US possession, were fitted with one beginning late in WWII and continuing afterward.

I am not certain if any of the WWII carbines originally had bayonet studs, but I don't think so. The bayonet stud, the click-adjustable rear sight, and a few other changes were performed as Arsenal retrofits on all (or at least the great majority) of WWII carbines remaining in US military inventory during the post-WWII period. The rear sight on that one appears to have at least started out as the WWII two-position type.

That carbine may very well have been one the French used in Indochina before they were kicked out by H o Chi Minh. The .30 Carbine was a great favorite of the Legion Etrangier. I wouldn't modify it in any way.

 

[Drm50]

A lot of what Ivan says is true, but the hardware would have been most likely borrowed from us. During This period it would
have been very easy to get American nuts & bolts in country, in
fact easier than Commie stuff. Also a lot of guns didn't have the
Provost papers, they found their way home in mail and other ways. Wasn't hard until dope addicts caused a problem sending
narcotics in the mail. They screwed up everything for sending
Mics, good stuff home. While VC may have reloaded with cast
bullets early in the war, they were past that when I got there.
The puzzle to me is the writing, Ivan is right- why would it be
in English? I wrote " If found return to Adolf Hitler" on a PP
magazine with a lead pencil, guy I selling it to said I would have
got away with it, had I been smart enough to write in in German.

 

[Saigon1965]

Gentlemen - I thank you for the commentaries - Please keep those thoughts coming -

As for the Carbine - I am happy either way - I've got an early Carbine that have lived a questionable life -

Here are quite a few more pictures of components for your review -

I've questioned the writing - It lacks the accents on it to make it "Vietnamese" -


Hello Dan - I hope you're well - Best regards.

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
M1 Carbines started out (WWII) with no bayonet lug and a "L" shape flip rear sight blade (one leg for 100 yds and the other leg for 300 yds). It appears that one of the legs was grounded down to made a "V" type quick sighting sight. The regular rear sight legs were peep sights. The screw on the upper sling swivel is a replacement which is normal as these screws were easy to lose. IMHO a previous owner modified a early mfg carbine into a one of a kind Viet Nam "Bring Back". The stock and handguard were refinished.

 

[CATI1835]

I am not certain if any of the WWII carbines originally had bayonet studs, but I don't think so. The bayonet stud, the click-adjustable rear sight, and a few other changes were performed as Arsenal retrofits on all (or at least the great majority) of WWII carbines remaining in US military inventory during the post-WWII period. The rear sight on that one appears to have at least started out as the WWII two-position type.

That carbine may very well have been one the French used in Indochina before they were kicked out by H o Chi Minh. The .30 Carbine was a great favorite of the Legion Etrangier. I wouldn't modify it in any way.

That was my point. None of the M1 Carbines manufactured started life with a bayonet lug. In response to complaints of troops on the ground, relatively late in the war (WWII) the US Arsenal added bayonet lugs and began to retrofit the existing, in service weapons with a lug. That retrofit continued until long after the war was over.

By the time of the Vietnam War all US owned M1 Carbines would have had a bayonet lug. From what I can tell from the pictures, the barrel on this gun does not show any of the typical tell-tale wear that I would expect to see if it had been fitted with one and later removed.

That brings to mind two possibilities. One, this was a weapon lost on the battlefield during WWII and somehow found its way to Vietnam. Or, two, this was a weapon we provided one of our allies that never went through the Arsenal retrofit and was subsequently lost.

Either way, I don't believe this was a Vietnam era, U.S. issued weapon. All of the U.S. and South Vietnamese M1 Carbines would have had a bayonet lug.

 

[BB57]

It appears to be a fairly early M1 Carbine in mostly original configuration.

- It has what probably was the original 2 position aperture sight, but the L shaped leaf has bene replaced with a field expedient with an aperture and a v notch.
- It has the early 2 rivet hand guard (which appears to have been re-riveted - there was a reason they went to 4 rivets instead of 2 in there later M1 carbines).
- It has the early Type 1 barrel band
- It has the early button safety (as opposed to the later lever style used to prevent troops dropping the magazine by mistake when they meant to move the safety button.)
- It has the original flat top M1 bolt (most US carbines that remained in use after WWII got the stronger round topped M2 bolt).

The stock however is an M2 stock given the pot belly profile found on the M2 carbines and the presence of a selector cut that was not found on the semi-auto only M1 stock. (I.e. it's not poorly fitted on the left front of the receiver, it's just an M2 stock with the selector cut.)

----

I disagree with one of the posters above that all M1 carbines in US hands were updated to the late style barrel band with a bayonet lug. Back when you could still get these from DCM in very good to excellent condition (1970)s it was not uncommon to get an early M1 that still had the early style Type 1 and 2 barrel bands, and had no indications of ever having a Type 3 band with bayonet lug. These were also M1 carbines that had always been in US hands.

The difference in whether the M1 Carbine had upgraded depended on whether it been issued for service, brought out of storage and upgraded to the latest configuration prior to being delivered under a foreign military assistance program, or just stored since WWII.

M1 Garands had a similar trajectory when it came to updates and arsenal rebuilds. Those that were issued after WWII were usually arsenal rebuilt at some point, those that were sent out as military assistance in the 1960s usually got arsenal rebuilt with a new production barrel, and those that had never gotten tapped for either of those tracks stayed in their original condition.

----

In this case however I think it is likely that the carbine was in fact either a carbine issued to one of our allies during WWII, or very shortly after (the early Type 1 sights were mostly replaced by about 1948), or was a combat loss in Asia during WWII, and either way eventually found it's way to Vietnam, where it probably got a replacement stock at some point, given the configuration and the overall lack of updating that would have probably preceded delivery to South Vietnam as military assistance.

I would not discount the French Foreign Legion possibility. That is the same route that Walther P.38s found their way into VC and NVA hands.

I also agree that capture paperwork would be nice, but the reality is that paperwork wasn't always a requirement.

 

[triaxle]

You have a rare one their to bad it cant talk . Those guns had a hard life out on the ** Chi Min trial .

 

[ordnanceguy]

The Viet Cong used tons of M-1 Carbines and got them from a variety of sources. This May 1971 image shows a female VC with her M-1. Looks like she is happy in her work lugging a crate of what may be US 81MM mortar rounds.

 

[patrickd]

We outfitted the S. Vietnamese army with thousands of M! carbines early on as we had tons of surplus rifles and basically, they were to small to equip with the the M14 we used and the M1 fit them perfectly.

 

[DWalt]

I am curious about that cartridge, as I don't recognize it. What are its dimensions? (OAL, case & bullet diameter, case length, rim diameter) It appears to have no headstamp whatsoever, and that in itself is a little strange. Usually only very early cartridges are seen w/o headstamps.

 

[why am I here?]

I spend too much time dealing with carbines so I can say without a doubt Winchester and Inland both came with bayonet lugs straight from the factory. Inland used them starting at the end of 44 and Winchester a few months later. As far as this carbines goes, yes it is a mix of original and other USGI parts. The trigger housing alone a fairly rare dogleg hammer is worth about 400 bucks plus or minus just a bit. BTW, the rear sight is original, but clearly has been modified in way I've never seen before. It's an interesting carbine no matter what the history of it actually is.

I also just noticed the Springfield Armory birch looking stock. The barrel band is original, but swivel screw as mentioned is for sure not. The swivel looks odd. I am going to hold comment on that right now.

 

[Saigon1965]

Gentlemen - I don't have any calipers to measure the round...so sorry. Any other way for me to measure?

Here are some better pics of the magazine and sling - I've never heard of this mag.