Virtues of the 4516

[totin'45]

A fellow forum member read my response to Moose21 regarding concealment holsters and my experience training with a 4516. He asked that I start a thread regarding the 4516 as a law enforcement weapon and how it performed during a two week tactical speed shooting course I attended at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. So, here goes...

I carried a first generation 4516 in a plain clothes capacity for 10 or 12 years until I traded it in for my current CS45. Prior to that I carried a first generation 645, and before that a 469. I also carried a 4566 for a short while before I retired in 2004. So all tolled I carried S&W semi-autos for approximately 17 years. Prior to that it was wheel guns.

Of the four semi-autos I found the 4516 to be the best compromise for plain clothes carry. I loved how the 645 handled and shot, but it is a very large and heavy piece. The CS45 is a little short on handling and long range shooting, but a great carry gun still considering how small and light they are. The 4566 comes close to the 4516, but not quite. It is a little heavy and the longer butt is harder to conceal.

The tactical speed shooting course I mentioned was federal law enforcement's answer to the various private combat courses being conducted Masaad Ayoob, Jeff Cooper and the like. The course consisted of two weeks of shooting as much ammo as you could stand in every conceivable situation. We average 500+ rounds a day in the hand guns alone plus some shotgun, machine guns, and a lot of simunitions. At the end of the course they told us we had each shot in excess of 6,000 live rounds. This was full house loads, not wimpy wad cutter stuff.

During that entire course my 4516 did not malfunction once. I did break an ejector, but the gun kept functioning and I did not discover the broken part until I cleaned the gun at the end of the day. I did see a number of malfunctions in other brands, but mostly due to improper handling rather than design flaw. The Sig's were the worst.

The virtues I like best about the 4516 are:

1. Smooth contours and no snag points (spurless hammer, Novack low mount sights).

2. Very easy to conceal for the barrel length and mag capacity.

3. All steel construction, very rugged.

4. Very ergonomic shape with natural point ability (for me anyway).

5. Very good accuracy for such a short barrel.

I had a hot rod Colt all steel Commander (which I sold to Larry Cooper of the BATF. You may recognize his name if you are familiar with Ruby Ridge) but it never did shoot as well or as naturally as the 4516. Or maybe I just didn't shoot it enough, I don't know.

Well, that's enough of that. Hope it might be useful to someone considering a 4516. If you can't find one, my next choice would be the 457 or the 4566. Keep safe!

 

[Mack]

Thanks for the info, I also like the 4516.

 

[18DAI]

Great thread!!

The 4516 is one of my favorites. Back when I was looking for a compact 45, I tried all the popular models. Sig 245, Kimber Ultra, Colt Defender ect.

The 4516 was the only one to run 100% reliably - AND have tack driving accuracy.

I "discovered" the 4516 accidently. Back in 2003 my agency had a range day where we used confiscated guns to destroy confiscated ammunition. We destroyed it by sending it down range. A bread truck full of ammunition and guns was pulled up by the range. SRT and the few gunnies got most of the good stuff, 10mm and all the 1911's.

I fished through a box of guns and underneath a 6" nickel Python with lime green faux pearl grips, found a filthy 4516 no dash. I don't think that 4516 had been cleaned or lubed since it left Springfield. Hmmm.... a compact S&W 45. I'll try this.

I spent the day with that one pistol. It's accuracy was startling for a little 45. Around 300 rounds it started to get slow so I broke it down, hosed it with Breakfree and went on to fire a few hundred more problem free rounds. The rounds were a milk crate of everything. Wadcutters, JHP and ball. Some were so old they were green with verdigris. The little 4516 ate them all.

I was so impressed I went out and hunted down a NIB 4516-3. Mine has laser etched markings and was made between 2003 and 2004. It was an overun from a law enforcement order. Up until a year or so ago you could still order 50 brand new S&W 3rd generation pistols.

I qualified with my 4516-3 again this year for on and off duty. I shot a 100 score on the night portion. It is a superb duty gun.

I'll probably pick up another 4516 maybe a 4516-1. I'd like to hunt down the elusive PC 4516. I've never seen one, but the code is listed in the SCSW.

Great underated pistol the 4516. Everything you want in a compact 45 and nothing you don't. Regards 18DAI.

 

[Badkarma 1]

Agreed! I currently run an old 645 named "Sonny" and it just eats everything I stick in the magazine including EMPTIES!! And a 5946.
I'm curious as to the sort of malfs the SIGs were suffering though?

 

[totin'45]

The Sigs were suffering from failure to feed problems because of loose grips on the guns by the shooters. I have seen this many times when teaching semi-auto conversion classes to LEO's who had been trained on revolvers. It wasn't just with the Sigs, but other makes as well. However, the Smiths seemed to suffer from it less.

I traded my 645 for a 4566 to an FBI Agent who just had to have the gun Sonny Crockett carried in Miami Vice. I'm guessing that's where you 645's name came from?

P.S. The worst POS I ever saw on the line was a Beretta.

 

[SMSgt]

The 4516 sounds a lot like my 4566. If BBs and rocks will fit the mag, the gun will feed them.

I bought my police trade-in 4566 with no clue as to condition or # of rounds thru it. Starting off with a thorough cleaning/lube, it's fed FMJs, PDX1s, and many 230 grn LRN reloads without a hiccup. That 45XX series is tough to beat.

 

[Leiden]

Why I like my 4516 - law enforcement perspective

Reading the above posts made me sit down and think about why I like my 4516-1. I have come up with the following reasons:

1. It's different. In an agency of 3500 I'm the last holdout with a S&W 3rd gen pistol....I use a 4506/1006 for uniform and the 4516 for detective work. My religious backup is a 442. When I'm at the range or on the street I can see the younger deputies look at the stainless S&W steel monsters and wonder what they are. Afterall, there is a mysterious aspect to anything not Glock or 1911 in our agency. I like being different..I wear a full Class B uniform on patrol and a leather duty belt most of the time. My shirts and trousers are pressed and I still polish my boots with Parade Gloss and a cotton ball. In the modern days of polo shirts and external vest carriers, Glocks and plastic I probably don't fit in, but I'm OK with that. The type of guy who polishes his boots is in my mind they kind of guy who would carry a S&W 4516. They guys who want easy, no maintenance and don't want to pay attention to detail tend, in my experience, to wear a Glock, nylon duty gear and crumpled, unpressed uniforms. I guess our choice of hardware speaks to our inner discipline to an extent.

My first run in with a S&W 4516 and 4566 was in the hands of a US Marshal on an extradition flight. He appeared to me at the time to be the epitome of a professional law enforcement officer and he certainly looked like he knew how to use his hardware. I guess subconsciously I wanted to be like that and the 4516 fit the mold....it's good to have heros these days and role models.

2. The 4516 is reliable... Mine feeds empty cases from the magazine without fail. Try and get a Glock or Colt to do that.

3. Its comforting... I don't know really how to explain this but for those of you in law enforcement you've been in a situation where your sidearm has been out and you have complete confidence in knowing what you can do to remedy the issue, and if you need to do it, you know there won't be an issue from the hardware perspective. My 4516, and 4506, feel good in my hand, have a heft to them that lets me know they're there, and somehow inspire confidence that at least the hardware isn't something I have to worry about. Somehow, holding plastic doesn't bring about the same comforting feeling as heavy, stainless steel. When I carry my 4516, I know it'll work all the time, the round will go where I aim it, and it's a serious firearm.

Oh well, this is just one person's perspective. If you want, sit back in your chair and hold a Glock 22 in one hand and your 45XX/10XX in the other and ask yourself the following question: "What would Bill Jordan, Charles Askins, Melvin Purvis, etc., carry??" If you're wondering who these guys are you've probably already chosen the Glock.

 

[RufusG]

My theory on why the 4516 is so comfortable to shoot is that the design has stuffed about the maximum mass into the minimum space. It's really heavy and its all close to your hand. FWIW.

 

[srsmyth]

I tried to find a 4516 long after their release and was told they had been discontinued, I don't remember the year but I found one police trade-in that I didn't buy at the time. Can you 4516 guys verify the discontinuation? I bought a 4516-2 in late 1994 and was told it had been re-introduced. I'm curious about the history of the 4516.
Steve

 

[billymontgomery]

645

I have a 645 I bought used and I have a problem with it. The last round shot and the slide locks up. Any suggestions

 

[srsmyth]

I have a 645 I bought used and I have a problem with it. The last round shot and the slide locks up. Any suggestions

Hi billymontgomery, I have a 645 and the slide locks open after the last shot because the empty magazine locks it open. If that is what you are experiencing that is typical 645 behavior. Drop the magazine out and press down the slide lock and the slide should snap closed. Keep fingers clear.
Steve

 

[billymontgomery]

Thanks srsmyth.My problem is the slide locks closed.I think I have found the problem. The slide lock comes up just enough to grip the edge of the slide and hold it closed. I like this gun, shoots well, and has a nice trigger pull.

 

[SMSgt]

Thanks srsmyth.My problem is the slide locks closed.I think I have found the problem. The slide lock comes up just enough to grip the edge of the slide and hold it closed. I like this gun, shoots well, and has a nice trigger pull.

The magazine follower should push the slide lock up against the slide when the last round feeds into the chamber. That way the lock engages when the final round is fired. It should not lock the slide in battery.

Is the slide locking with an unfired final round chambered, or only after the final round is fired?
Does it do this with multiple mags or only one?

You can try this:
Perferably with a dummy round or snapcap, carefully otherwise, put one round in the mag and chamber it. Is the slide locked forward? If locked, drop the mag and see if the slide is released. If so, you have a mag spring or follower issue and I'd replace both (or the mag itself).

 

[billymontgomery]

645

smsgt
thanks . the slide locks after the final round is fired. following your suggestion I put a dummy round in the magazine and chamberd the round and the slide did not lock. It appears when I fire the last round the slide lock comes away from the frame enough to rub hard enough to lock the slide closed. when I manualy push the slide lock down it frees the slide. it seems that the slide lock should fit closer the frame of the gun. I have a 9mm smith and the slide lock fits closer to the frame.

 

[Mack]

smsgt
thanks . the slide locks after the final round is fired. following your suggestion I put a dummy round in the magazine and chamberd the round and the slide did not lock. It appears when I fire the last round the slide lock comes away from the frame enough to rub hard enough to lock the slide closed. when I manualy push the slide lock down it frees the slide. it seems that the slide lock should fit closer the frame of the gun. I have a 9mm smith and the slide lock fits closer to the frame.

Is the slide lock seated all the way into the frame? There should be a very small gap when seated properly.

 

[Fletchman]

I am going to take a ccw class in February and I am looking for a compact 45. I own a 39-2 in 9mm and it's a great gun but I want a compact 45. This thread has been of great help.

 

[surfgun]

smsgt
thanks . the slide locks after the final round is fired. following your suggestion I put a dummy round in the magazine and chamberd the round and the slide did not lock. It appears when I fire the last round the slide lock comes away from the frame enough to rub hard enough to lock the slide closed. when I manualy push the slide lock down it frees the slide. it seems that the slide lock should fit closer the frame of the gun. I have a 9mm smith and the slide lock fits closer to the frame.

Replace your slide catch. They are known to wear out. The original went bad on one of my 645's and it has run great since the part was replaced.

 

[BUFF]

I had a failure-to-cycle with my early M-4516, a TCP18XX s/n, a first year production gun, the first one I saw, in 1989. A friend and fellow deputy was trying it out when it stopped working. I thought he had limp-wristed it at first. A closer examination showed that he had loaded the magazine with .40 S&W cartridges, and those just didn't run too well.

Two of my squadmates while I worked burglary, then robbery-homicide squads carried them. I never saw either of them fail to fire and cycle during training and qualification. One later went to a compact Glock 9mm. The other traded his in later about 8 years for a blue CS45 when those came out. He appreciated the lighter weight

I think they are a bit heavy for their size, which does allow them to be very strong and long-lived guns, and if need be, make very satisfactory cudgels.

I need to dig mine out and shoot it again soon.

 

[totin'45]

Wow, I never thought this thread would generate so much enthusiasm! Great to see there are so many 4516/45XX lovers still out there. Makes me wish I didn't trade mine in on the CS45, although I would still carry that model because it is so light and easy to conceal. That's why I bought it in the first place, so I WOULD carry it.

At one time the S&W double action semi-auto's were the bread and butter of law enforcement. Just about every department that switched over to semi-auto's went with Smiths. My first S&W semi was a factory brushed chromed 469 designed for the Illinois State Police in the early '80's. I even had a box of their special 9mm +P+ ammo manufactured by Winchester just for them.

Then came the "plastic fantastics". I think the reason Glocks are so popular in law enforcement is you can teach a chimpanzee to shoot one. They don't get any simpler than a Glock. I still prefer the safety of the long double action first pull though, especially if the guy behind me in the stack has his/her finger in the trigger guard!

 

[xopher88x]

I came across one in rough, I mean rough shape. A 4516-1. Picked it up for $300, carried it for a while, or tried to anyway, it got too heavy by the end of my long days. I shot it a lot. Well, I was a little younger and much stupider back then (couple of years ago) and I sold it, not knowing what I had. I'm still, to this day, looking for a .45 that is as reliable as that thing was, and one that I don't have to worry about, the way I didn't worry about that one. It didn't have scratches, it had gouges. It must have been run over, twice maybe. Still ran like a top.